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Old 02-21-2005, 08:20 PM   #1
Michael Hill
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Ok, I'm a little confused here. After reading the interview in the free issue of performance menu, it was mentioned that exercising on an empty stomach and not eating for at least an hour after produces a much better GH response.

I searched the old posts and remember reading something in Protien Power about only eating protien before working out in order to produce a better GH response.

Yet, then I also recall a post by Larry Lindenman. Part of it said, "Immediately after our training session, a natural restoration in anabolic hormones starts to occur, as our body tries to start the recovery process of protein synthesis.

The main volume of these hormones include: Insulin, Growth Hormone, Insulin-Growth Factor, DHEA, and estrogens.

This restorative process is called biochemical supercompensation.

However of all of these hormones, released insulin is the most important. Insulin rebound is responsible for the release of Growth Hormone, which is the key hormone responsible for the release of Insulin Growth Factor.( See Enter the Z Factor for more about Growth Hormone and Insulin Growth Factor)

Protein synthesis will simply NOT occur if there is an insufficient or delayed supply of energy and amino acids to offset post-workout catabolism.

The primary goal of post-workout nutrition is to rapidly induce an environment that will recoil, and help increase, these naturally occurring hormone levels to begin the crucial process of protein synthesis.

This can be best accomplished by decreasing post-workout cortisol levels rapidly and aiding our bodies in rebounding insulin levels, to further aid in the release of Growth Hormone and Insulin-Growth factor.

By consuming simple carbohydrates post-training we can induce an increased production of these anabolic hormones and thwart gluconeogenesis; thus maintaining a more positive nitrogen balance.

Here's the full link:
http://www.crossfit.com/discus/messages/23/7580.html

These are two completely contradictory accounts of what to do in order to promote anabolic hormones through combinations of exercise and diet. What is reality here?

1. Does fasting before/after to increase GH release only apply if you are below a certain body fat percentage?

2. Which one is better, a fasting state or just no carbs before?

3. Is being on an "empty stomach" referring to exercising after waking up in the morning before eating or just after not eating for several hours after a meal?

Thanks for everyone's input
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Old 02-21-2005, 08:38 PM   #2
Pat Janes
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I shared your confusion after reading the Art De Vany interview.

I always do the WOD on an empty stomach; at least 2-3 hours after lunch. This is mostly because, for me, doing the WOD with anything in my stomach other than water, is inviting an unwelcome return of that partially digested lunch.

As for post-workout nutrition, most of what I've points to the consumption of sufficient (usually simple) carbohydates and protein. You'll most likely find endless different definitions of what "sufficient" means.

I have a protein shake immediately after each WOD; skim milk + protein powder and swallow fish oil capsules with it, to keep it Zone-friendly. After some WODs, that is pretty much all I'd be able to keep down.
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Old 02-21-2005, 08:55 PM   #3
Michael Hill
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I rechecked Art De Vany's website and noticed that his perscribed workout only is only done about 2x's a week with 3 days between. Might this have anything to do with anything?

Also, I thought about it a little bit more and he notes that fasting post workout will inhibit other anabolic hormones such as IGF1. Maybe the article Larry referred to was incorrect mentioning GH, but not with regard to IGF, DHEA, insulin etc. De Vany's idea seems to revolve much more around GH and testosterone and minimizing the other because while they may promote some increases in performance they are detrimental to longevity and good health (eg bodybuilders). Still someone's wrong about insulin being necessary/bad for the GH release.
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Old 02-21-2005, 08:57 PM   #4
Robert Wolf
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Nothing contradictory here, just some VERY complex machinery! I've tinkered with both approaches and from an emperical stand point both work. The post WO insulin spike will get me chubby in quick order. The low or no carb option tends not to.


We have an article comming up which looks at this stuff but here is something to consider in the mean time:

Caloricc restirction with adequate nutrition (CRAN) seems to have a host of health benefits but maintaining muscle mass (if the CR is overly severe) is not one. Intermittent fasting (one day feast, one day fast) on the otherhand has all of the benefits of CRAN but it can mitigate weight loss so long as one consumes, on average, the same calories as normal.

Both CR and IF increase the neuro-endocrine response (this is part of why the Zone works IMO) to exercise and promote an acute adrenal cortical response but IF dramaticly increases IGF (the insulin like growth factor Michael mentions), and some other anabolic biomarkers.

Early indications are that there are two completely different mechanisms at play here but they produce quite similar results.

Robb
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Old 02-21-2005, 11:09 PM   #5
Hone Watson
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Michael, there is conflicting information and studies can be provided to support both forms of the argument. You can experiment for yourself like Robb has and its possible that they both might produce similar results as Robb suggests.

Art De Vany recommends eating well 1.5 hours after completing the work out and to avoid gainer and sports drinks like gatorade.

My basic understanding as to why he recommends against any form of carbs after the work out is this. Firstly a brief intense work out with specific characteristics is all that is required to release growth hormone.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1 2137178&dopt=Abstract

Secondly, after intense exercise high concentrations of free fatty acids are released in the bloodstream to be used as fuel. When sugar is taken at this time the sugar is used instead of the free fatty acids leaving the blood with high concentrations of fatty acids where they can be oxidized to form streaks on the lining of blood vessels.

Which is bad.

An intense form of exercise according to Phil Campbell which has the following 4 characteristics combined will cause the maximum release of growth hormone.

1. Oxygen debt (Regulation of growth hormone during exercise by oxygen demand and availability, 1987, Vanhelder).

2. Muscle burn and lactic acid release

3. Increased body temperature (Role of body temperature
in exercise-induced growth hormone and prolactin release in non-trained and physically fit subjects, 2000, Vigas)

4. The University of Virginia research team identified the “adrenal hormone release function” as possibly playing a central role in HGH release. The release of epinephrine (adrenaline) that boosts the body in stressful situations and norepinephrine, which maintains normal blood circulation, both play vital roles in HGH release.

Therefore a warm up which raises the body temperature followed by a workout like "Grace" (and a whole host of other crossfit workouts) or the De Vany workout should bring all of the above factors in to play to cause a growth hormone response. And according to the study above even a 30 second maximal sprint would be sufficient. Notice that a 30 second maximum effort sprint after a warm up also meets all of the above 4 criterea.

Consider also that the oxygen debt component is not common in most body building work outs.

Dr Michael Colgan who trains a number of elite athletes maintains that you should never spike your insulin due to its propensity to cause pre diabetic effects, hence Robb getting chubby using the insulin spike method, and maybe one of the reasons why most body builders who follow the insulin spike philosophy have a fat gut for 90% of the year (access abdominal fat is a sign of insulin resistance). Check out what Dr Michael Colgan's says below and consider the implied consequences of each point.

**
It is not only diabetics who should strive to maintain blood sugar stability. This strategy applies to all of us if we want optimal health and also to athletes if they want optimal performance. The evidence shows that eating a low-glycemic diet:

1. Enables your body to gradually learn to produce energy more easily from it’s structure, and to be much less dependent on the food in your gut.

2. Minimizes the hypoglycemic effect of sudden intense exercise.

3. Increases the free fatty acids in the bloodstream, thereby enabling you to spare muscle glycogen during exercise and reduce bodyfat.

4. Reduces your appetite for quick sugars and carbohydrates that spike blood sugar, and start the pre-diabetic process.

5. Maintains insulin sensitivity and efficiency, thereby preventing diabetes.

6. Keeps blood sugar stable, including during exercise. Blood sugar stability is essential for growth of muscle and strength for the even flow of energy and the prevention of diabetes and CHAOS
**

The prescription of 2x per week, 3 days rest is an average and he specifies that sometimes he will work out up to 4 times per week and sometimes not work out at all. This is to minimize the opportunity of overtraining which would force the body into a catabolic state and to provide the element of randomness. Secondly muscles grow during rest. Maintaining and building lean mass is an important factor in his evolution fitness philosophy.

I remember in the movie Dances With Wolves they go on a buffalo hunt. Fresh at the scene of the successful hunt they cut out the buffalo heart and eat it raw - fat and protein. In the intense prehistoric struggles over the times we evolved I think that this would be a more accurate depiction of a post work out meal. Have you ever seen pictures in National Geographic etc of Inuit with blood all over their faces at the scene of a recently successful hunt?

My post workout meal today an hour after my work out was 100 grams of kangaroo steak cooked rare in a tablespoon of coconut oil (kangeroo meat is the tenderest red meat I've ever tried). My local market also has whole organic lamb hearts with are also great for a post work out meal. I'm not hardcore enough to eat it raw yet.

Art De Vany, Phil Campbell and Michael Colgan are all over 50, have body fat 8% or below and have muscular builds which means they could be on to something.
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Old 02-22-2005, 01:11 AM   #6
Hone Watson
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I just read the sample newsletter at Robb's site and found it to be most excellent. It even includes a fantastic interview with Art De Vany.

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Old 02-22-2005, 09:50 PM   #7
Robert Wolf
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Hone-

Fantastic post! Have you followed Keith's site: www.evfit.com ? Great stuff there.

When we make it to your part of the world perhaps you can set us up with some kangaroo steaks.

Robb
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Old 02-22-2005, 09:58 PM   #8
Pat Janes
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G'day Hone.

I thought from your message, Robb, that an Australian had snuck onto the board without me noticing... but Hone is from across the Tasman Sea in New Zealand.

Much more likely to find Kangaroo on the menu over here than in NZ.
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Old 02-22-2005, 10:35 PM   #9
Hone Watson
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Thanks Robb, I have checked out Keith's site, read quite a bit of its excellent content and yes it would be my pleasure to rustle up some kangeroo steaks anytime anybody is up for some.

G'day Pat. Actually right now I'm based in Melbourne so theres plenty of Kangeroo meat here, although I used to enjoy Kangeroo steaks in Auckland too...it was available from a butcher 5 minutes walk from my house. Its a real bargain price and quality wise in Melbourne.

I've visited around 15 gyms so far there has only been one with an area dedicated to Deadlifts and O Lifts so I've only had one O Lift work out in Melbourne although I did manage to also get try a Tabata Power Cleans with a small 60 pound barbell.

Maybe we should start Crossfit Down Under Pat?
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Old 02-23-2005, 12:55 AM   #10
Pat Janes
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Hone, you're lucky you found one gym interested in olifts. I workout from home, so I can do what I like (well, my wife adds some restrictions).

CrossFit Down-Under is on my TODO list; I'd love to see it startup sometime soon.


As for the roo meat; high in protein, iron and zinc, very lean, up to 5 times more CLA (conjugated linoleic acid) than lamb; in short, extremely good for you.

It's bizarre that kangaroo is not more widely eaten here. It has been used extensively in petfood for a long, long time, but not many people eat it (at least not regularly).
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