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Old 03-24-2008, 05:04 PM   #21
Ryan Saul
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Re: Children's vaccinations

Please correct me if I'm wrong but it appears that a majority of people who are pro-vaccines are not parents, and vice versa. I'd be curious to hear from parents who are for ALL of the recommended vaccinations. Again, I feel uneasy about the shots and I think that if it was your own kids health on the line some of the bold feelings would change. I've looked at a lot of things different since I've had kids, especially if it concerns my kids directly.

I'd like to see more actual evidence supporting both sides of the argument, preferably from non biased sources.
 
Old 03-24-2008, 05:07 PM   #22
Emily Mattes
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Re: Children's vaccinations

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Emily, did the black plague die because of a vaccine?
I am actually pretty glad you asked this question, because I just learned an awful lot more about the biological causes (and questions about the biological causes) of the black plague from its Wikipedia article and linked sources.

The black plague was originally widely assumed to be caused by the bacterium y. pestis, which is carried by certain species of rodents. If you decide this was the cause of the Black Death, it is still alive and well, harbored in the bodies of certain species of rodents in the Rocky Mountains and elsewhere. Causes for the plague ending include the theory that the species of rat that harbored the plague was eventually replaced by another species of rat that did not support the same type of flea that harbored the plague.

However, there are a bunch of other theories that Y. pestis may not actually have been what caused the plague, and the agent was a type of anthrax or Ebola, a bacterium and virus respectively. Anthrax, as we know from popular culture, can be pretty damn potent if properly weaponized, and the theory is the form of anthrax that caused the specific European plague was just CRAZY bad.

Anyway, if you're talking about those causes, then the reason the plague ended is it simply spread so far and so fast, and had a small enough incubation period that it burned itself out. Plagues are generally limited to heavily populated areas because there are a LOT of targets for infection. Europe was ripe for this, being severely overpopulated during the mid-1300s (the point where maybe half of Europe died from it). By the time you have half a population gone, and the other half terrified out of its wits, well, there really isn't much more room for infection, and at that point a short-lived agent will simply die out. It is difficult to wipe out 100% of a population purely from disease. A few members will always survive.

So, no, the black plague was not defeated by vaccine. It was defeated by itself. If we got hit with a plague with the virulence of the plague of Europe, we would all be completely screwed--but as we're not exactly sure what hit Europe, we can't exactly develop a vaccine against it.

However, there have been modern-day plagues. Check out the influenza epidemic of the early 20th century. Killed more people across the planet than all of World War I. Soldiers were more likely to die in the trenches of that than the fighting itself. That's why people take certain strains of the flu VERY seriously and want to develop a vaccine against it (well, H5N1, specifically). Because of the potential incubation period of that thing, the concentration of population, and the ease of travel between population centers a world full of unvaccinated people is asking to be wiped out.

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Girls who don't engage in that type of behavior are quite safe.
I don't know what your point is here. What, that girls who have sex with more than one partner are dirty little sluts who deserve what they get? Does that hold for boys, as well? Because men can get colon cancer from HPV, which is why Gardasil is going through trials on men, too.

You do realize that nearly 80-90% of the population is infected with some form of HPV, correct? And you can spread it simply from touching somone (though the chance is minimal)? If you've had sex with someone, anyone, you can contract it. If you kiss someone, you can contract it. If you shake their hand, you can contract it. HPV is like herpes--you can have it and be a virgin, and the method of infection, expression, and rate of clearance from the body is very poorly understood.

And dang man, what if, God forbid, your daughter was raped? And she contracted a cancer-causing strain of it that way? Do you want that on your conscience? Getting your kid vaccinated is like saying "Honey, I don't know what's going to happen with you, and I trust you to make good choices, but I want you to be safe no matter what."

------------------

Regarding the "miracle" AIDS vaccine--Matt, that vaccine was still very much in the testing stages. It was not given out for widespread use. It is disingenuous for you to make the implication that the failure of a vaccine in testing means that all vaccines out on the market are dangerous, or that the problems in creating a vaccine for a very difficult virus like HIV means that all vaccines are bogus.

Last edited by Emily Mattes : 03-24-2008 at 05:11 PM.
 
Old 03-24-2008, 05:19 PM   #23
Ryan Saul
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Re: Children's vaccinations

Emily,
I would caution you in citing Wikipedia as a resource about anything. I agree that it is very informative but you have to wonder about what you are reading when it could have just been edited by anyone who has an internet connection.

On season 3 of The Office, Michael Scott said, "Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject, so you know you are getting the best possible information."

I'm just sayin'.
 
Old 03-24-2008, 05:49 PM   #24
Emily Mattes
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Re: Children's vaccinations

Yeah Ryan, I know, which is why I would never bring Wikipedia into a discussion about, say, the Middle East conflict!

However, for the particular article about the black plague, the article is extensive and well-referenced, which is why I felt comfortable using it in this context.

But I went ahead anyway and checked out PubMed, which is just as well because I found this (WFS) study and this one that say they found Y. pestis in medieval adults and children! As this study comes after Twigg's assertion that anthrax may have been behind the plague, it seems to confirm that Y. pestis did indeed cause the plague.

Regarding the HPV assertions, which sources would you trust? The CDC? Planned Parenthood? PubMed articles? Because they're all going to say the same thing. :/
 
Old 03-24-2008, 06:02 PM   #25
Steve Reggio
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Re: Children's vaccinations

I am the parent of a 6 year old with autism. This a topic that is very hotly debated and one thing I am certain of is this- you can create a study to prove any point you want. Of course the people that have pushed vaccines and increased the number of vaccines did a study that proved there is no link. There are studies on both sides regarding the autism and vaccine link.

I will say this from personal experience- My son will NEVER get another vaccine in his life. I believe that a flu shot, with thimerasol, he received at 3 years old contributed to a decline in his social and communication skills. Within two days after the shot we began to get reports of aggressive behavior at day care, he stopped talking, he began to withdraw from other children and had trouble participating in group activities that were easy beforehand.

My advice- study the issue and read the arguments from both sides. On the school issue- you can get a religious exemption to waive the vaccinations.

I personally feel there is a link between vaccines and autism, I know that I see a link every single time I look at my son.
 
Old 03-24-2008, 06:11 PM   #26
Emily Mattes
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Re: Children's vaccinations

Ryan, for your edification, here is a link (WFS) to a discussion of this very subject on another forum. A lot of links, and well-informed answers and opinions. It is not hard data, but it is more ideas to consider, and use as a jumping-off point for further scientific research. After all, it is not like anyone so far has produced any hard data for you here (including myself)!

Also, here is a link to the Wikipedia page on vaccine controversies. I am not advocating you consider this to be the be-all, end-all of your research. But it does provide some overview of the arguments, as well as citations of studies you can read and then use as a jumping-off point for further research.

All I ask, is whatever choice you make please, please let it be a well-informed decision backed by serious medical research published in peer-reviewed scientific journals, not from just what anyone on the internet says. Again, including me.
 
Old 03-24-2008, 06:29 PM   #27
Derek Maffett
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Re: Children's vaccinations

The black plague burning itself out makes sense, but that would not account for it completely. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe there has been a case of the bubonic plague for quite a long time now. Living conditions in Europe got better and now conditions are good enough that sicknesses which used to be a problem are now only minor issues.

Quote:
I don't know what your point is here. What, that girls who have sex with more than one partner are dirty little sluts who deserve what they get? Does that hold for boys, as well? Because men can get colon cancer from HPV, which is why Gardasil is going through trials on men, too.
You play with fire, you get burned. No, I'm not saying that I want people to get STD's, but that's what happens. I don't have much sympathy for those people, though I wish them full recovery if possible. Yes, that holds for boys, too.

I don't think anyone should be going to vaccines for safety when they are the ones putting themselves in danger. A person should put himself out of danger as much as possible and if it's still a horrible epidemic that's going to kill you, then vaccines may become important. I know of no such epidemics in the United States.

Quote:
You do realize that nearly 80-90% of the population is infected with some form of HPV, correct? And you can spread it simply from touching somone (though the chance is minimal)? If you've had sex with someone, anyone, you can contract it. If you kiss someone, you can contract it. If you shake their hand, you can contract it. HPV is like herpes--you can have it and be a virgin, and the method of infection, expression, and rate of clearance from the body is very poorly understood.
I don't believe that happens very much, though of course, it can. Clearly a good deal of that 80-90% is some relatively benign form of HPV, otherwise we'd pretty much all be diagnosed with an STD.

As for your rape question, I would sooner train her in the use of a gun and make sure she carries one with her. Guns provide protection from HIV, AIDS, HPV, herpes, loss of life, etc... while the vaccine only covers HPV and does not prevent the rape from occurring. But wait, the government doesn't let minors have guns, does it? As a matter of fact, what with all the red tape, most law abiding young women aren't going to have anything for self defense when they really need protection.

Anyhow, possibility of rape isn't necessarily a reason for getting the vaccine. Like I said, there are a lot of other dangers in that situation that aren't being dealt with, and the two risks of vaccine and rape have to be weighed.

Essentially what I've been trying to say this whole time is:

To prevent disease:
1. Avoid people and places likely to have diseases. It's common sense that a tuberculosis-filled town is not a good place for someone who wants to avoid tuberculosis. Public school is a nation-wide violation of this.
2. Proper hygiene. This ranges from basic (washing your hands) to large-scale (plumbing, sewer systems).
3. Vaccines if there is still a need. If the first two rules are kept, then rates of disease would fall immensely. From these rates, you should determine what diseases are still a problem and merit the risk of taking a vaccine.

Sometimes the first two rules might be broken for good reason. In such cases, risk begins to tilt more towards disease than vaccine. Examples would be a doctor who has to be around sick people or charity workers in an undeveloped country. However, these rules should not be broken without good reason and if they are, then more people get sick and more people take vaccines while not separating themselves from the root problem.
 
Old 03-24-2008, 06:41 PM   #28
Robert Pierce
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Re: Children's vaccinations

Wow.

I am a physician and father of 2 boys, one girl.

My kids have all of their vaccinations, including annual flu shots. My 13 yo daughter has had the Gardasil series.

Anecdote: the first child I saw on pediatrics rotation in medical school was septic with H. flu meningitis. Pus came out where clear cerebrospinal fluid should have been. Not vaccinate my kids? Are you kidding me?

There is no link with autism. Not that the vaccines are w/o risk. But those who do not vaccinate are taking advantage of the herd immunity generated by the rest of us who do...and personally, I don't think that is fair.
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Old 03-24-2008, 06:48 PM   #29
Derek Maffett
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Re: Children's vaccinations

Robert, was that child you mentioned vaccinated or non-vaccinated? I'd like to hear the answer regardless of which side it may seem to support.

You mention that vaccines do have risks - could you please elaborate?
 
Old 03-24-2008, 06:58 PM   #30
David Wood
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Re: Children's vaccinations

As long as we're working off samples of size one . . . I have a seventeen-year-old daughter. Full vaccination series, including Gardasil (her choice). (Thank you, Derek, for your characterization of her . . . I'll extend your best wishes. (Somehow, I don't think she'll appreciate them, though.))

She's fine, by the way . . . no negative reactions at all.
 
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