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Old 07-13-2010, 01:35 PM   #31
Matt Haxmeier
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Re: Study finds correlation between C.O.G. and Speed

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Originally Posted by Aushion Chatman View Post
This is an aside, but personally I think "black" is a much more accurate term than "African American" which is a term I can't stand because it doesn't mean what we say it means...we don't mean African American (historically from Africa) because we don't use it for Egyptians or Libyans...What we mean, and what we should say is "black".[/I]
As a funny aside...I used to work with a white guy who was born in Algeria, lived in France most of his life, and then he moved to America and became a citizen. We used to get a kick out of describing him as African American when he was pretty obviously a white French guy .
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Old 07-13-2010, 01:39 PM   #32
Jamie J. Skibicki
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Re: Study finds correlation between C.O.G. and Speed

Laurion,

Then where did the fast black kids come from? Blacks weren't allowed to play professional sports until the Jackie Robison. Yet now they dominate the two biggest professional sports in the country with only 24 % of the population.

The stereotype didn't come out of thin air.

"With so much cultural bias surrounding race/ethnicity/nationality and sports events it becomes very hard to determine what is genetic and what is a cultural artifact."

And that is an issue typically for the US. Why doesn't germany or scandanvia countries or china have sprinters in the Gold meter 100 and 200?
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Old 07-13-2010, 01:51 PM   #33
Steven Price
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Re: Study finds correlation between C.O.G. and Speed

Laurion, There are well-known genetic/statistical methods of sorting out "genetic vs. environmental" effects. In Homo sapiens the best method has been the study of identical twins--comparing those raised in the same family with those raised apart (ex. adopted). For most characteristics that have been examined the genetic component of the total variation is at least 50%, with many studies showing 70% or more. I don't know if these studies have been applied to athletic ability, but I wouldn't be surprised. If they haven't, they certainly will be. I'd be astounded if athletic ability wasn't shown to be mostly controlled by genetics.
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Old 07-13-2010, 02:41 PM   #34
Aushion Chatman
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Re: Study finds correlation between C.O.G. and Speed

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Originally Posted by Jamie J. Skibicki View Post
"This post has nothing to do with race -- just differences in the genetic composition of certain populations"

"You believe faulty science IMO."

Which is it.


"The point I was making is that EVERYONE can trace their ancestory back to the sub-saharan."

We can also trace our ancenstory back to single celled creatures, but there have been a few changes since then.
Jamie,

I don't personally believe in macro-evolution...

But let me try to say it another way.

In America (in the American nationality) the black american dominates elite level basketball, track and football...very true.

In France the black french-men do NOT dominate the basketball.

Do you see the difference there. It's nationality not race...why isn't the french team at the olympics more black? Cultural choices...

So let's take Olympic weightlifting, powerlifting, soccer, swimming, IN AMERICA. So we're to believe that white americans are genetically gifted due to some sort of body type or different hamstring lengths for those sports... All of them...are the body types for elite swimmers anywhere near elite powerlifters?

Or can it be simply that certain sports are chosen by certain cultures in a nation rather than others?

You will also begin to run into some serious issues in a few years IMO.

There is a lot of what we generally term "interracial" marriages now taking place...and there will be many kids growing up, and eventually having kids of their own, that aren't going to fit nicely into one or the other group.

What about a kid like mine, he has a white parent and black parent... It's much easier (and more accurate) to say he is American, than a certain "race". And with all the marriages of different backgrounds happening in America today, it is much more accurate to say American than..."Well this kid is 1/4 Asian + 1/4 Black + 1/2 White = ?? (Tiger and Elin's kids...)".

THIS is why it is about a nation...because in 50 years there will be many people that have a list of parents from possibly many different "races". It will be much simpler and more accurate to say American basketball is dominated by Americans.
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Old 07-13-2010, 02:55 PM   #35
Steven Price
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Re: Study finds correlation between C.O.G. and Speed

Aushion, I presume what you mean by saying that you don't believe in "macro-evolution" is that you don't believe in speciation. This is what "macro-evolution" means. The issue on the table is "micro-evolution," that is, evolution below the species level. So you are saying you do believe in micro-evolution?
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Old 07-13-2010, 04:18 PM   #36
Laurion Burchall
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Re: Study finds correlation between C.O.G. and Speed

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Originally Posted by Steven Price View Post
Laurion, There are well-known genetic/statistical methods of sorting out "genetic vs. environmental" effects. In Homo sapiens the best method has been the study of identical twins--comparing those raised in the same family with those raised apart (ex. adopted). For most characteristics that have been examined the genetic component of the total variation is at least 50%, with many studies showing 70% or more. I don't know if these studies have been applied to athletic ability, but I wouldn't be surprised. If they haven't, they certainly will be. I'd be astounded if athletic ability wasn't shown to be mostly controlled by genetics.
That is interesting, but not what I'm talking about.

I'm talking about which sport/position an athletic child will be guided to. Take a young kid in the US who is fast, well-coordinated and generally athletic. There are a lot of different sports they could end up playing. Which one is selected depends on both the child's intrinsic ability and things like:
  • family income (swimming is expensive)
  • geographic location (hard to get ice time in Hawaii)
  • hero figures (which sports star does the kid idolize)
  • cultural values (which sports are 'cool')
  • general availability of the sport (is a Tennis coach available in town?)
  • any stereotypes that parents/coaches have (Asian kids can't jump high)
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Old 07-13-2010, 04:35 PM   #37
Jamie J. Skibicki
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Re: Study finds correlation between C.O.G. and Speed

We have already stressed that "black" is too broad a brush to be useful. West african and east african (see "track world records") seem to do it. From that we could say that "white" is again too broad, but scandinavian, Germanic, anglo saxon, etc, might do it.

The french basketball team has 13 players. Of the five starters, 1 is white, the other 4 are black (I did look up ancestory beyond that, I don't have that much time). Of 8 bench players, 2 are white, 6 are black.

Racial cenus is illegal in france but company recently did an estimate and come up with about 7 percent from africa
3.264M North African (5.23%)
1.080M Sub-Saharan Africans (1.73%)

So 76 % of frances national basketball team are black and 7 percent of their population is black.
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Old 07-13-2010, 04:44 PM   #38
Laurion Burchall
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Re: Study finds correlation between C.O.G. and Speed

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Originally Posted by Jamie J. Skibicki View Post
Laurion,

...

Why doesn't germany or scandanvia countries or china have sprinters in the Gold meter 100 and 200?
I think that sprinting just isn't as important in those countries. Germany and Scandinavian countries dominate the winter Olympics, with a medal count that is disproportionate to their population. The problem is that if you have your best kids out on skis preparing for cross-country, Biathlon, and downhill you will only be left with the slow, fat ones for sprinting or distance running.

The closest point of comparison that I can think of is that Germany isn't winning sprint medals in the summer Olympics but their bobsleigh teams are winning a lot of medals in the winter Olympics. This is notable because countries like the US and England are trying out sprinters and football players as pushers on their teams, but are still losing to the Germans. I don't think it is because Germans actually run faster...

On the other hand sprinting is very important in Jamaica. They have a lot of famous sprinters as role models, a system to identify and nurture young sprinters, and a youth population who all want to be the next Usain Bolt. It seems like the sprinting programs there get all the top athletic talent which is why Jamaica can field such dominant sprint teams.
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Old 07-13-2010, 04:51 PM   #39
Jamie J. Skibicki
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Re: Study finds correlation between C.O.G. and Speed

China wants to win everything, and they push their kids into sports whether the kids like it or not. In addition, you can send multiple athletes, track is cheap etc, so it's great for getting high medal counts.

Look at the numbers in pro sports, the ratios are WAY off. When a group of people is represented at a percentage of 3 times their representation in the populace, there is something more going on than just cultural. And this is across many countries. Look at frances basket ball team. I think you would find this across many countries.

ANd again, look at the finals of international track competions, it's pretty mono chromatic. I'm not saying culture doesn;t play a role, but so does genetics.
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Old 07-13-2010, 05:33 PM   #40
Laurion Burchall
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Re: Study finds correlation between C.O.G. and Speed

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Originally Posted by Jamie J. Skibicki View Post
Look at the numbers in pro sports, the ratios are WAY off. When a group of people is represented at a percentage of 3 times their representation in the populace, there is something more going on than just cultural. And this is across many countries. Look at frances basket ball team. I think you would find this across many countries.

ANd again, look at the finals of international track competions, it's pretty mono chromatic. I'm not saying culture doesn;t play a role, but so does genetics.
Your observations are true, but I disagree with your conclusions. The problem is that in a lot of countries race is well correlated with a host of environmental factors: income, where you live, access to education, access to food, parenting. In turn those factors affect things like educational achievement, career choice, work ethic and choice of sports.

I would argue African-Americans are overrepresented in track because they are overrepresented in areas with a thriving sprinting community, are more likely to be encouraged to enter the sport, and more likely to be scouted by coaches. Having the sport be culturally acceptable and being able to see other African-Americans succeed at the sport provides extra encouragement.

Sometimes genetics does matter. One example is handedness -- being left-handed or right-handed. Being left-handed can be an advantage in some sports (baseball, hockey defenders) but doesn't matter in others (distance running). Height can be very important too, but that is determined by nutrition as well as genetics. Genetic variations are normally larger between individuals than between ethnic groups on aggregate (ignoring hair/eye/skin color).

Taking an observation about race and instantly making it about genetics ignores the host of social factors that we have today and can lead to some scary talk, like:

"Look at the numbers in prison, the ratios are WAY off. When a group of people is represented at a percentage of 3 times their representation in the populace, there is something more going on than just cultural. And this is across many countries. Look at France's jails. I think you would find this across many countries."
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