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Old 02-24-2004, 09:07 AM   #11
Alexander Karatis
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Actually, most Naval aviators perform night carrier traps because they have to, not because they like them.

High-Risk acitivites are great fun when there is some control over them, not just sheer luck. But even then, proper safety precautions ensure you'll be able to participate in the activity time and time again.

I've done pretty stupid things in a car. Never once though was seatbelt unfastened.

Regarding dips now, is tilting forward at the end of your set considered bad form? (I always liked the way it burns out my chest)

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Old 02-24-2004, 09:43 AM   #12
Mike Yukish
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Hi Roger and Alexander,
I'll finish out the carrier analogy, then let you guys have the last word.

I joined the Nav because I wanted to land on carriers, at night, in heinous weather, to see if I could. I heard it was the hardest thing you could do while flying, and only the best (i.e., Navy) pilots could do it, and I wanted to see if I could do it too. In short, I did carrier traps because I wanted to.

Many's the time where, in the North Atlantic, at night, in driving snow, with 20-30 foot seas, I took off knowing the only place I could land was back on the carrier (blue water ops). Nowhere else to go, my plane wasn't refuelable, 4 hours of gas, then 4 shots max at the deck followed by either an attempted barricade (very bad) or bailout into frozen waters with a 15 minute life span (worse). No real room for error. It wasn't "ha ha" fun by any means, but I became addicted to the challenge. I volunteered for those flights, and wasn't alone. So I appreciate what makes free soloists tick.

To keep it on topic, when we'd work out in the ship's gym in heavy seas, say doing dips, you'd try to hold the weight steady while the ship was heaving up, then try to knock out as many reps as quickly as possible as you went "over the top" and the weight got light. Definitely added a new dimension to the whole process!
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Old 02-24-2004, 11:12 AM   #13
Ralph
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Alexander,
Whenever I do very low dips, my chest actually leans forward naturally. I imagine that it is the same position one would assume when making the transition from a pull up to a dip for a muscle-up. I actually wouldn't know because I have yet to complete a muscle up, but I have read that when you need to switch from a pull up to a dip during a muscle up, you're supposed to roll your shoulders forward.

So to answer your question, Alexander, IMHO I would say no, tilting forward during your dip isn't bad form.
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Old 02-24-2004, 11:38 AM   #14
Roger Harrell
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Ralph you are correct in your assumption that you should roll your shoulders forward in the muscle up. That's the transition Going from a high pull up, rolling forward and then doing a dip. Sounds so easy doesn't it?

I've worked out on a ship in moderate seas before. Loads of fun. Doing handstand pushups and presses is just funny. Spend more time on the floor than in the handstand.
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Old 02-24-2004, 01:50 PM   #15
Ben Gimball
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Mike,

It's not the act of performing a dangerous stunt that matters. Whether it is landing a Jet on a ship in inclement weather, or free climbing. The real question is this: Is it needed? When you land that Jet you are performing a very useful function for your country, as this may need to be done during wartime, and we have to have a number of pilots who can do it.

When there is a legitimate purpose attacthed to the event the event then becomes worthwhile. Free climbing for reason is foolish. Free climbing (when you have no alternative) to save a child who is near death is worthwhile.

Your life has value and anything with value needs to be respected and protected.
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Old 02-24-2004, 08:30 PM   #16
David Wood
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I completely unqualified to add much to this thread (which continues to be a great one).

But I'm going to anyway :happy:. . .

Ben, personally, I (almost) agree with you. I think that risky things make more sense when there's a purpose for them. So your obsevations that Mike's incredible skill as a pilot, or free-climbing to save a child's life, have meaning make sense to me.

The only problem I have is that neither you nor I are qualified to dictate what is "worthwhile" for another person to do, nor do I want to be, nor do I want anyone else deciding that for me.

Mike's flying skills might seem "not worthwhile" to someone else (perhaps someone who doesn't appreciate the role of a warrior, or see it as necessary?) . . . but that doesn't mean that this person should be able to tell Mike not to do it.

A free-climbers who is enough of an adrenaline junkie that he "needs" the experience of free-climbing to feed his jones has that right, and the judgements that you and I might make about that (unnecessarily risky (to me)) activity are irrelevant.

The only thing he doesn't get to do is expect someone to rescue him if and when he gets stuck . . .

Dave
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Old 02-24-2004, 11:16 PM   #17
Alexander Karatis
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I couldn't agree with you more Mike! Sorry for the smartassy comments about naval aviators not liking night traps-didn't realize i was actually telling one.

I know from my experience that no matter what plane I take off in, and what "stunt" I pull off, (like buzzing water taxis:happy:) my pre-flight is always extra careful and attentive. (just a hobbyist's PPL here BTW)

I have quite few friends flying fighters for the Hellenic AF, and some guys over here will even disengage the limiter off the F-16 in an effort to keep up with Mirage 2000s, in DACTs, at high alpha. Stupid? Yes, people have died doing this. Would i do it? If I could, yes. The point though is, I'd still have quite a few more contingencies if all went wrong (Short of a mid-air). And there is something gratyfying about muscling a jet in Out-Of-Control flight and winning the engagement.

Taking a safety rope off during a steep climb can hardly be such a skill, or accomplishment. Just shows confidence. But still it's unnecessary.

Damn-this thread is taking a life of its own.

To summarize:

I concur with Dave. There has to be a reason. Even if its just winning the engagement, or getting back on the ship. (In that analogy, landing is your only option short of an "accident").

The solo free climber may feel great by what he's doing-I'm sure. But he positively proves to me that he has an abnormal sense (or lack of) of fear. I mean, would you consciously remove the ejection seat from your plane? I'm sure you'd still land the a/c if it didn't have an ejection seat, but why make a choice between an F/A-18 ?with an ejection seat, and another without?
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Old 02-25-2004, 06:35 AM   #18
Ben Gimball
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Dave,

I disagree! When you have something of value, such as, gold, silver or diamonds, any reasonable man would think that it is foolish to squander it. You claim that it is a persons right to act like a fool. I could not disagree more!

If your argument is "it's his life." he can do what he wants to with it. I think that is a poor argument. Unfortunately, we do not live in a vacuum. Your final comment is unrealistic, "The only thing he doesn't get to do is expect someone to rescue him if he gets stuck." How many times have we watched "reality TV" and witnessed brave rescue workers risking their lives to help a nit wit who did not respect his own life?

Are we supposed to respect a man who free climbs up the side of a steep mountain, gets stuck, and then relys on others (who might be married with children) to free him from an early grave? I think not! Nor, is it their right to put the lives of innocents in danger just because he needs his adrenalin fix.

If they want to kill themselves they need to do it in a place where no innocent people will be harmed. Better still go to a good Psychologist!

Any risk of life is unworthy unless it has attached to it the saving of anothers life!
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Old 02-25-2004, 06:46 AM   #19
Mike Yukish
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In my old age, as I approach the autumn of my days with cane in hand, I now avoid gratuitous risks like unroped climbing, unhelmeted skiing, drinking cheap beer, and driving without a seatbelt. But I'd be lying if I said I had joined the Navy initially for patriotism and pay. It was all about the challenge and danger. The kudos and paycheck were nice, but the only real difference between me and the soloists were I had a good, socially acceptable cover story, to be honest. The only opinion that mattered was my own. OK, chicks dug the uniform too.

There is something special about having mastery, and taking it to a place where there is no safety net. After you've done it (and it's a potent spice, to be used in very small quantities) you realize how bland the rest of the menu can be.

To hook to the other thread, I really, really hate quitting a WOD, because I feel like I train for the day when quitting will absolutely not be an option, and so I'd rather practice always finishing. Besides, it's just pain. And Kelly is twice as strong and half as heavy as I am, and she *always* does it.
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Old 02-25-2004, 07:02 AM   #20
Alexander Karatis
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This gets even more interesting! What carrier aviation era are we talking about here? I assume we're at least talking Jet Age right? (If you don't mind my asking) The unrefuelable part of your post and the "cane" did get me to thinking!


P.S.: But wait, your profile says you're only 43! "Cane in hand"!Pffff-I almost fell for that!":proud:
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