CrossFit Discussion Board  

Go Back   CrossFit Discussion Board > CrossFit Forum > Fitness
CrossFit Home Forum Site Rules CrossFit FAQ Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Fitness Theory and Practice. CrossFit's rationale & foundations. Who is fit? What is fitness?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 06-20-2010, 12:45 PM   #1
Michael Halbfish
Member Michael Halbfish is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: New Brunswick  NJ
Posts: 400
Jon Gilson Again Faster Article

Jon Gilson just wrote a very interesting article on finding optimal power output.

w/f/s http://www.againfaster.com/articles/

He bases the article on something Zatsiorsky wrote about finding optimal power output. Maximal Output is achieved at about 50% of max load. Thus, as Gilson states people shoiuld be able to do Thrusters at 190 before doing Fran at 95lbs.

This is contrary to the popular trend to do short heavy metcons, CFFB, CFSB, and other heavy lift before short metcon approaches that many affiliates are now favoring.

It also leaves open questions about varied weight and rep schemes. I am very interested in other peoples thoughts regarding his article and how to best implement Jon's wisdom, assuming that Jon is correct.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2010, 01:04 PM   #2
Joey Powell
Member Joey Powell is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Prescott  AZ
Posts: 569
Re: Jon Gilson Again Faster Article

We had a discussion about this a couple of years ago in the forums when Gant Grimes was recommending heavy met-cons. I said then and still maintain, that velocity of load can have a much more direct effect on the nuero-endocrine response than heavy loading in a met-con format. Plus, injuries and tweeks stay at a minimum. My thoughts are from practice and observation, coupled with Dr. Siffs work.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2010, 01:05 PM   #3
Nolan Womack
Member Nolan Womack is offline
 
Nolan Womack's Avatar
 
Profile:
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Troutdale  OR
Posts: 103
Re: Jon Gilson Again Faster Article

It looks to me like a way of just scaling the weight for the WODs, where I believe you would keep the number of reps constant. There has been great results off of CFFB/CFSB/etc, but I bet if the scaling he suggests was used for MetCons, that there'd be even better results produced. It makes sense to me that this "should" increase results, and I'm glad you posted this cause I'm going to start using this with my programming. However I'm not exactly sure what he was saying about the 30% speed, is that 70% of maximal speed (30% less then max)? And how would that be determined in a workout, seems rather hard to measure?
__________________
M|19|186
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2010, 01:11 PM   #4
Travis Loest
Member Travis Loest is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Hinesville  GA
Posts: 827
Re: Jon Gilson Again Faster Article

I'm curious about this. May try it and come back later to give some input. Always enjoy his writing.
__________________
I suck...but I'm working on it.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2010, 01:17 PM   #5
Daniel Lyell
Member Daniel Lyell is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Blacksburg  VA
Posts: 125
Re: Jon Gilson Again Faster Article

Interesting. I wonder what other's take on this will be.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2010, 01:32 PM   #6
Katherine Derbyshire
Member Katherine Derbyshire is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Seattle  WA
Posts: 7,596
Re: Jon Gilson Again Faster Article

The 50% of 1RM rule of thumb also appeared in a CFJ article on relative intensity that I can't currently find.

From what I've observed, the big downside of scaling this way is psychological. No one wants to admit that the "best" weight for them is significantly less than what "real" Crossfitters use. (Myself included.) Big and strong is viewed as "better" than light and fast, even though power output calculations show it isn't necessarily true.

Katherine
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2010, 01:42 PM   #7
Tamara Cohen
Member Tamara Cohen is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Asheville  NC
Posts: 4,392
Re: Jon Gilson Again Faster Article

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Halbfish View Post
Jon Gilson just wrote a very interesting article on finding optimal power output.

w/f/s http://www.againfaster.com/articles/

He bases the article on something Zatsiorsky wrote about finding optimal power output. Maximal Output is achieved at about 50% of max load. Thus, as Gilson states people shoiuld be able to do Thrusters at 190 before doing Fran at 95lbs.

This is contrary to the popular trend to do short heavy metcons, CFFB, CFSB, and other heavy lift before short metcon approaches that many affiliates are now favoring.

It also leaves open questions about varied weight and rep schemes. I am very interested in other peoples thoughts regarding his article and how to best implement Jon's wisdom, assuming that Jon is correct.
But, I think so much of it is individual. For example, my OHS is 135 lbs. But, I get killed by high rep OHS in WODs like Jeremy or Nancy when the Rx'd weight is 65 lbs. There are girls at my gym with an OHS of less than 100 lbs who can out squat me with OHS for high reps. On the other hand, with cleans, push press or jerks, I can do a WOD pretty damn fast with a weight that is much, much closer to my 1RM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2010, 01:42 PM   #8
Troy Becker
Member Troy Becker is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Reno  NV
Posts: 1,118
Re: Jon Gilson Again Faster Article

I don't know if 50% is really the desired number- was Zatsiorksi talking about lifting or metabolic conditioning? Can you really make a blanket statement about a workout involving 21-15-9 reps of whatever the same way you can talk about box squats?

It's something worth testing, check out the old CFJ article about the approximate power output of Fran. Take some guys and have them do it with various percentages of their 1RM for a thruster, see what works out the best- meaning yields the highest power output. (By the way, does this mean that if you can't do a pull-up with your body weight hanging from you once, even kipping, that you should use band assistance?)

As far as his West Side reference, Louis says that 55%-65% is where you achieve max power, right? He has been training higher than those percentages as of late with his guys, from what I've heard.

And, of course, we may find that someone with really good lungs can do thrusters at higher percentages of their 1RM, where as an ex power lifter can't finish Fran in less than 30min with a 95# thruster when his 1RM is 400. Can we really judge proper scaling for someone based on their absolute strength when so many workouts have other very significant factors- namely metabolic conditioning, stamina, etc.- come into play?

Bottom line: this could be a very good step in the right direction, but we need to look much more into it. At least that's what I think.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2010, 02:23 PM   #9
Chris Mason
Banned Chris Mason is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Charlottesville  VA
Posts: 4,708
Re: Jon Gilson Again Faster Article

I think he has drawn an erroneous conclusion relative to what Zatsiorsky observed.

The fact that maximal power output occurs at roughly 50% of 1RM does not necessarily mean that training with a 50% load will optimize power. Power with weights is a function of how quickly a given load can be moved a given distance. In other words, work equals force times distance, so if you bench 100 lbs a distance of 2 feet you have done 200 lbs feet of work. The faster you can do that amount of work the higher the power output. Being able to move a given load quickly involves being able to accelerate said load quickly. F=MA, so being able to produce greater force equates to greater acceleration.

The point of the above is the main reason power maxes out at a 50% load is because you can accelerate such a load so quickly as to generate a ton of power. Thus the key to power is absolute force production capacity which goes back to ME days, or increasing 1RM strength.

In addition, something like Fran or the like involves strength endurance, not really power. If you want to improve your Fran you should increase your 1RM strength and then perform work that will facilitate strength endurance within the muscle(s).

The overriding point here is that you are not going to optimize power by training with loads where it is peaked (if that is the focus of your training). Power production is more of a by-product of maximal effort training with adjunct training with lighter loads to train the CNS to recruit motor units more quickly and in a more efficient to the movement at hand manner.

Lol, does that make sense? A bit of stream of consciousness babbling here...
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2010, 02:36 PM   #10
Diego Sommariva
Member Diego Sommariva is offline
 
Diego Sommariva's Avatar
 
Profile:
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Estepona  Spain
Posts: 290
Re: Jon Gilson Again Faster Article

Many PT manuals advise on a load between 55% and 80 or 85% of a 1RM for optimal power output. Anything above this causes a decrease in speed and hence a lessening of conditioning, according to these texts. Working inside these percentages apparently provide the best gains in strength, speed and power. Also, anything below is not enough load to provide the aforementioned gains.
Another thing I've read is to never stop pushing/pulling. We normally lessen our strength when we get out of that "sticky" zone, like coming out of the hole during a squat, and this means we're only working at full throttle throughout 50-60% of the movement. Multiply this by the number of reps and sets and instead of working at 100% throughout 25 reps, we're only doing so for half of that, which means we're only working out for 12-15 reps.

Diego
__________________
-----------------------------
CrossFit, so out of this world Luke Skywalker did it on Dagobah with coach Yoda
  Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Jon Gilson Strikes Again Ron Haskins Equipment 1 01-30-2008 07:33 PM
Kudos for Jon Gilson! David Wells Equipment 4 01-02-2008 12:28 PM
Again Faster and Jon Gilson Chris Stowe Equipment 5 05-18-2007 04:07 AM
PR for Jon Gilson Ron Haskins Equipment 9 04-23-2007 02:58 PM
Gilson Cleaning Jon Gilson Digital Coaching 2 02-06-2007 01:54 PM


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:51 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
CrossFit is a registered trademark of CrossFit Inc.