CrossFit Discussion Board  

Go Back   CrossFit Discussion Board > CrossFit Forum > Fitness
CrossFit Home Forum Site Rules CrossFit FAQ Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Fitness Theory and Practice. CrossFit's rationale & foundations. Who is fit? What is fitness?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 01-24-2014, 12:23 PM   #71
Steven Wingo
Member Steven Wingo is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Ocala  FL
Posts: 506
Re: Did Rippetoe get CrossFit right?

The "hopper" was never a workout program within CrossFit from everything I have seen, heard, and read. It is a way to test fitness--choosing the multiple events to test at random among a hopper of all available possibilities. Who can perform the best among a variety of events chosen at random? That is addressed in the Level 1 seminar and the Level 1 materials. And it is a good way to test overall fitness.

I have never seen "the hopper" presented as a workout program or design. In fact at the two CrossFit seminars I've attended there was significant emphasis on the fact that programming within CrossFit is not random. Specific guidelines were given regarding what constitutes acceptable programming.

I would agree this discussion regarding exercise versus training has a lot to do with semantics and is largely irrelevant. That is the problem with the article. Rippetoe chose to treat it as an important issue--something more than semantics--and use it as way to criticize CrossFit to the general population through his article. In doing so he also misled his readers by arguing that CrossFit programming is random. Rippetoe knows that is not true--either that or he is a moron and I'm not willing to believe he is just a moron because he does know a hell of a lot about weightlifting technique.

In regard to whether everyone should just move on, I both enjoy discussions of this nature and am someone who will defend something I believe in and think is right. Here, CrossFit is right and Rippetoe is off base. I'm willing to say so and discuss it. But I'm not willing to lose sleep over it.

Last edited by Steven Wingo : 01-24-2014 at 12:25 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2014, 03:09 PM   #72
Bill Walker
Member Bill Walker is offline
 
Bill Walker's Avatar
 
Profile:
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Temple Hills  MD
Posts: 41
Re: Did Rippetoe get CrossFit right?

At the end of the day, isn't it all interval training? I mean what is wrong with training in intervals.

There are always these types of articles and ultimately it just seems one is so pressed to go on a mountain top and say, "All of what you all are doing is wrong." What does he suggest (or anyone ) suggest you should do for Conditioning? I've seen articles and posts (disclaimer: ultimately who cares, it's the internet) that say how evil Crossfit is and such citing the main site but technically speaking haven't folks been doing Crossfit since the dawn of man? lol
You're basically doing compound movements and pushing yourself...isn't the goal of conditioning to simply not be out of breath?

Jail workouts...basically bodyweight exercises...insanity...P90X....essentially Cardio...isn't that all Crossfit? I honestly don't see the big deal. As long as you have good form and use common sense, what's the problem?

A superset with compound movements...is that not Crossfit? Maybe you add running. This is stuff people have been doing for eons. I don't understand all the backlash. Crossfit Inc is just that a company that houses a bunch of training methods into a doctrine. People have been doing crossfit for years and didn't call it Crossfit.

Are people upset at the "random workouts" for the mainsite? You don't have to use the mainsite. A buddy of mine, we'd literally make up our own Crossfit-style workouts in a bodybuilding template.


Excuse me if I'm ranting but it all seems much to say about absolutely nothing. Let people do them...help them! It's all fitness.

Does anyone see a particular hustle being used....Sassing this and saying "here take this product, this is what you should do." lol.
__________________
About me - Work Safe link.
http://theinformationage.co/2012/12/30/411/
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2014, 05:54 PM   #73
Jason Denny
Member Jason Denny is offline
 
Jason Denny's Avatar
 
Profile:
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Indianapolis  IN
Posts: 254
Re: Did Rippetoe get CrossFit right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Doehla View Post
Today is 1-1-1-1-1 Deadlifts. What do you do the other 45 minutes of a class?
We do not have set times, our shifts are too irregular to have set times. It is ran differently than most because of this and it's free. Main site strength WODs are too random to build any real strength.
__________________
Indyshield Crossfit
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Indy-...65019083520597
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2014, 06:04 PM   #74
Sebastian B. Vaneria
Member Sebastian B. Vaneria is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Albany  NY
Posts: 99
Re: Did Rippetoe get CrossFit right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Wingo View Post
The "hopper" was never a workout program within CrossFit from everything I have seen, heard, and read. It is a way to test fitness--choosing the multiple events to test at random among a hopper of all available possibilities. Who can perform the best among a variety of events chosen at random? That is addressed in the Level 1 seminar and the Level 1 materials. And it is a good way to test overall fitness.

I have never seen "the hopper" presented as a workout program or design. In fact at the two CrossFit seminars I've attended there was significant emphasis on the fact that programming within CrossFit is not random. Specific guidelines were given regarding what constitutes acceptable programming.

I would agree this discussion regarding exercise versus training has a lot to do with semantics and is largely irrelevant. That is the problem with the article. Rippetoe chose to treat it as an important issue--something more than semantics--and use it as way to criticize CrossFit to the general population through his article. In doing so he also misled his readers by arguing that CrossFit programming is random. Rippetoe knows that is not true--either that or he is a moron and I'm not willing to believe he is just a moron because he does know a hell of a lot about weightlifting technique.

In regard to whether everyone should just move on, I both enjoy discussions of this nature and am someone who will defend something I believe in and think is right. Here, CrossFit is right and Rippetoe is off base. I'm willing to say so and discuss it. But I'm not willing to lose sleep over it.
You guys are mis-characterizing "The Hopper" theory of training. It's not simply drawing workouts/movements out of a hopper. Instead, under "The Hopper" theory, you are asked to identify the three or so movements that you would least like to see drawn from a theoretical hopper containing all of the CrossFit movements. The idea is that you should be training these particular movements in an effort to bring them up to speed. In theory, you train them until you no longer fear them coming out of the hopper. It was simply a theory on how to improve your weaknesses. CrossFit has never advocated doing workouts by randomly drawing movements from a hopper.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2014, 11:42 PM   #75
Jonathan Kinnick
Affiliate Jonathan Kinnick is offline
 
Jonathan Kinnick's Avatar
 
Profile:
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Corona  CA
Posts: 133
Re: Did Rippetoe get CrossFit right?

Here's my take:

Calling something "Exercise" implies there is no progress or direction.

Calling something "Training" implies measurable progress toward something.

Based on the millions of data points I've analyzed since we (BTWB) started collecting them in 2008, CrossFit (including main site and all of the many, many different expressions at boxes around the world) is "Training".

It has dramatically increased all of the Powerlifts and Oly Lifts in thousands of participants. It has increased their scores in all types of Metcons/Benchmarks. It has increased mile, 5k, 10k, and Marathon times.

Whatever one's "goals" are, CrossFit will improve that metric in virtually all of its participants. People who actually do CrossFit for any length of time show remarkable gains. These improvements continue over multiple years.

I know of no other training/exercise program that has attempted to turn the general public into athletes on this scale, especially not with this type of efficacy.

Anecdotally, my brother, Jeremy Kinnick, went from being an overweight real estate agent in mid-2007 to finishing 29th at the 2009 CrossFit Games, using .com programming exclusively. Before he started CrossFit, he hadn't lifted weights in over 5 years, when he played baseball at a local community college. He couldn't pull 300 lbs on a Deadlift when he started, and PR'd at 435lbs on the ladder that year. Only 16 of the 77 male athletes (20%) pulled over 500lbs. Jeremy recently pulled 485lbs for 10 (wfs)

Many of our members have approached 500lbs on the Deadlift without any strength work besides the metcons we program and the lifting EMOMs we do once a week.

In regards to crossfit.com programming:

The main site does not, has not, and will not ever follow a strict template or structure. Coach has laid down a "theoretical template" that lays out some basic programming philosophy, but it is not meant to be strictly adhered to. If you attend the Coach's Prep Course, they will explain to you a few of the variables that it's important to balance in effective programming (e.g. Duration, Rep range, Load, Modality (M/G/W), # of Movements, Frequency of Movements over time, etc.).

Main site programming is not random. It is thoughtfully planned. And it's an experiment. And it's a work in progress.

The idea that any of these "structured" programs are somehow superior because they randomly set in stone certain set/rep/percentage schemes is silly. They are ballpark numbers that generally give decent results, but they are not very optimized, or personalized, in general. They are not "scientifically derived". They give results (usually) so people do them.

Lift multiple times per week for a while and you will get stronger.

And since many people buy into the "cult of strength" and feel that strength trumps all other aspects of physical capacity, they want a dedicated strength program. That's what Mark Rippetoe wants. If that's your priority, that's great. But that may not be the optimal way to achieve the goal of "CrossFit".

Anyone programming at a CrossFit gym will have some idea of the general balance they want to see regarding the different elements they believe are important. They have a general (or in some cases very specific) idea of how often they want to hit certain types of things. This doesn't make their programming random or ineffective. Rich Froning or Jason Khalipa can walk into the gym and decide on the fly what they need to do, because they've been doing this long enough to know what they need to hit. Most veteran CrossFit coaches can do this as well. Is this the most optimal method that is theoretically possible? No. But it's more effective than what most people outside of CrossFit are doing.

To argue that CrossFit is not effective at achieving its goals is, to quote Coach Rippetoe, "Silly BS".
__________________
What is "Fitness Level"?
CrossFit Kinnick - Upland & Ontario, CA - beyondthewhiteboard.com/gyms/1-crossfit-kinnick
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2014, 08:26 AM   #76
Jason Denny
Member Jason Denny is offline
 
Jason Denny's Avatar
 
Profile:
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Indianapolis  IN
Posts: 254
Re: Did Rippetoe get CrossFit right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan Kinnick View Post
Here's my take:

Calling something "Exercise" implies there is no progress or direction.

Calling something "Training" implies measurable progress toward something.
No, most exercise to get into better shape or be healthier in general. Most who use our gym only want that and there is nothing wrong with it. Training is a focus are a particular skill, or goal. CrossFit actually fits BOTH definitions based on the person's goals.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan Kinnick View Post
Based on the millions of data points I've analyzed since we (BTWB) started collecting them in 2008, CrossFit (including main site and all of the many, many different expressions at boxes around the world) is "Training".

It has dramatically increased all of the Powerlifts and Oly Lifts in thousands of participants. It has increased their scores in all types of Metcons/Benchmarks. It has increased mile, 5k, 10k, and Marathon times.
I can speak for myself as a CrossFitter since early 2009. I came from a running/bench pressing philosophy prior to. I made huge and quick gains by following mainsite until about mid to late 2012 when I stalled and stalled and stalled. My conditioning was great, my strength stopped improving. Very frustrating knowing that I had much more potential. Change was needed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan Kinnick View Post
Whatever one's "goals" are, CrossFit will improve that metric in virtually all of its participants. People who actually do CrossFit for any length of time show remarkable gains. These improvements continue over multiple years.

I know of no other training/exercise program that has attempted to turn the general public into athletes on this scale, especially not with this type of efficacy.
Yes, CrossFit is great in this aspect, it got me back into soccer after a 18yr layoff.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan Kinnick View Post
Anecdotally, my brother, Jeremy Kinnick, went from being an overweight real estate agent in mid-2007 to finishing 29th at the 2009 CrossFit Games, using .com programming exclusively. Before he started CrossFit, he hadn't lifted weights in over 5 years, when he played baseball at a local community college. He couldn't pull 300 lbs on a Deadlift when he started, and PR'd at 435lbs on the ladder that year. Only 16 of the 77 male athletes (20%) pulled over 500lbs. Jeremy recently pulled 485lbs for 10 (wfs)

Many of our members have approached 500lbs on the Deadlift without any strength work besides the metcons we program and the lifting EMOMs we do once a week.
Hell, I went from NEVER having done a deadlift to 525lbs in a matter of 2 years following just mainsite. Then for the next year...NOTHING, no increase. Same with my back squats. Went from never doing ANY leg work to 385lbs in 2 years but could NEVER break that barrier. There come a point where novice gains will cease.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan Kinnick View Post
The idea that any of these "structured" programs are somehow superior because they randomly set in stone certain set/rep/percentage schemes is silly. They are ballpark numbers that generally give decent results, but they are not very optimized, or personalized, in general. They are not "scientifically derived". They give results (usually) so people do them.
Structured strength programs are what ALL coaches use to train their athletes in power lifting/weight lifting. It's the best way to insure progress. I spent most of the year last year doing 5/3/1 and my lifts skyrocketed. I have since switched over to following Catalyst Athletics weighlifting programming...fantastic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan Kinnick View Post
Lift multiple times per week for a while and you will get stronger.

And since many people buy into the "cult of strength" and feel that strength trumps all other aspects of physical capacity, they want a dedicated strength program. That's what Mark Rippetoe wants. If that's your priority, that's great. But that may not be the optimal way to achieve the goal of "CrossFit".
Strength gains take a LONG time to realize. For me, it was easier to relax on the conditioning and focus on the strength. Sure my conditioning has decreased but my strength has really gone up. However, my "decreased" conditioning still allows me to play an entire soccer match w/o subbing and I run/fight at work without losing my breath, so I'm doing fine. Through my experience I have found that it is easier to condition strong people than it is to strengthen well conditioned people.
[quote=Jonathan Kinnick;1216126]
__________________
Indyshield Crossfit
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Indy-...65019083520597
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2014, 10:21 AM   #77
Jonathan Kinnick
Affiliate Jonathan Kinnick is offline
 
Jonathan Kinnick's Avatar
 
Profile:
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Corona  CA
Posts: 133
Re: Did Rippetoe get CrossFit right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Denny View Post
Hell, I went from NEVER having done a deadlift to 525lbs in a matter of 2 years following just mainsite. Then for the next year...NOTHING, no increase. Same with my back squats. Went from never doing ANY leg work to 385lbs in 2 years but could NEVER break that barrier. There come a point where novice gains will cease.
Jason, this is my point. You improved dramatically in strength, for 2 years, not 6 months, doing a program usually requiring less than 30 minutes of training per day. A program where the main focus is not strength. You also improved your conditioning to very high levels.

Do you believe spending 30 minutes a day on a strength only program (like SS) would have brought your Deadlift much higher than 525lbs in the first 2 years? Would it even have brought you to 525lbs by that time?

Starting Strength, which apparently is "Training", is all about those initial strength gains. It's not designed to be used for 2+ years in most people. Pretty quickly you need a longer, more involved program. And the gains will be much, much slower. No program that I've seen gets people from 600 to 700lbs in a year (naturally). Rippetoe doesn't have one. At that point the gains are slow no matter what. This comes as a shock to most CrossFitters, when their unbelievable gains start to taper off, but this is not a fault with CrossFit. It's a reality of all Training.

Also, I've never seen Coach Glassman say or imply that main site was the only thing that someone should do. In 2005 he wrote "There is plenty of time within an hour session to warm up, practice a basic movement or skill or pursue a new PR or max lift, discuss and critique the athletesí efforts, and then pound out a tight little couplet or triplet utilizing these skills or just play." Virtuosity

In my opinion, it's unfair to ask Main Site alone to accomplish everything that anyone could ever want in fitness. Good coaches, in CrossFit, give additional focus work, etc. as needed for the clients who are willing to put in the extra time to get to the next level. You can't become a competitive powerlifter by training 30 minutes a day. You can't become an Olympic-level weightlifter by training 30 minutes a day. You also can't become a Games-level crossfitter training 30 minutes a day, anymore. (Although an hour per day is reportedly enough for Valerie Voboril)

Athletes at the Elite level in any field generally train 4+ hours per day. It's a testament to the efficacy of Main Site programming that people are seriously comparing the effects of a sub-30 minute program to incredibly complex and custom tailored 4+ hour training protocols.

To say that top CrossFitters aren't doing "CrossFit" because they are not doing "Main Site only" is silly.

Even still, as your personal experience attests, Main Site will give you solid strength gains by itself for a few years. This is also what Starting Strength is designed to do (if you can even progress on it for that long).

If Rippetoe and everyone else doesn't think that those first two years count as "Training", then I disagree. I don't believe the implication that you can't "Train" for the first 2+ years because you are a novice.

"Exercise" does not bring 500lb Deadlifts in my book. Zumba, Jogging, Walking, Spinning, Step Aerobics, Kickboxing, Bootcamps, treadmills, Ellipticals, etc. do not bring 500lb Deadlifts. Or anywhere close to that. I'm ok with categorizing those things as "Exercise". But a program that brings the kind of measurable gains that CrossFit does is not mere "Exercise". If "poorly-programmed random flailing-around in the floor for time" can bring a 500lb Deadlift, then why is it so hard for a novice to get one on Starting Strength only?
__________________
What is "Fitness Level"?
CrossFit Kinnick - Upland & Ontario, CA - beyondthewhiteboard.com/gyms/1-crossfit-kinnick
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2014, 12:33 PM   #78
Steven Wingo
Member Steven Wingo is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Ocala  FL
Posts: 506
Re: Did Rippetoe get CrossFit right?

Never deadlifting to 525 in two years, and no leg work to a 385 back squat in that same time, is a huge testament in favor of CrossFit's philosophy of training. That is awesome.

Jason, did you give thought to just doing more volume in addition to the main site programming? It appeared to be working really, really well. With that success I'd say the first change should be to just up the volume or up the intensity.

---

People should not lose sight of the fact that CrossFit, through its main site programming and even more so through its affiliates (and copycats for that matter) has resulted in HUGE improvements in fitness for tens of thousands of people. Many of these people wanted to get fit and worked at it, without the results. They were working out like they were told, going to spinning, walking or running on the treadmill, training for triathlons, hitting the weight machines, and so on. Most of them were seeing substandard results.

Well along comes CrossFit and what do we have? Those well intentioned people who learn about it and join a box are getting very fit, getting strong, getting flexible, improving their posture, getting lean, running faster 5k races, and so on.

Why does someone like Rippetoe decide to write an article, published in a general news publication not a training journal, trying to criticize CrossFit as exercise without goals and blatantly mischaracterizing it as "random" programming? Jealously maybe. Or a lack of his own good ideas to add to the discussion so he makes something up? Maybe he has just convinced himself of the truth of what he says and fails to the flaws in his reasoning. I don't know.

I would like to see him provide actual scientific evidence that his approach is better than CrossFit's approach.

Does he disagree with constant variance?

Does he disagree with the use of functional movements?

Does he disagree with the use of high intensity?

That is CrossFit's prescription. What is wrong with it? What program does he have which is better? Or at least adds to the equation?

I don't see that he tried to even provide an alternative.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2014, 01:18 PM   #79
Jason Kelley
Member Jason Kelley is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Leatherhead  UK
Posts: 117
Re: Did Rippetoe get CrossFit right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Wingo View Post
Does he disagree with constant variance?

Does he disagree with the use of functional movements?

Does he disagree with the use of high intensity?
.
Who knows but again surely it depends 'for what'? If you were talking about a specific aspect such as muscle building or strength then functional movements aren't necessary. Neither is constant variance (very different from progression).

High intensity will also depend on definition.

So as always; context is key.

But I am sure he is/was coming from a strength point of view. And if you were "training" for absolute strength, mainsite WOD wouldn't be your chosen path if you wanted the most effective route surely??
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2014, 03:35 PM   #80
Steven Wingo
Member Steven Wingo is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Ocala  FL
Posts: 506
Re: Did Rippetoe get CrossFit right?

If you change the context of his article, so that it is a discussion on the best way to gain absolute strength to the exclusion of other abilities, I would agree with you. But he did not so limit his article or argument and his intended audience was the general public not strength athletes.
  Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
New Rippetoe articles... Michael Manning Community 7 12-05-2009 01:15 PM
Rippetoe Squatting Steven Quadros Exercises 101 09-20-2008 12:48 PM
Rippetoe needs You Mark Rippetoe Community 5 05-12-2008 10:38 AM
Rippetoe needs You Mark Rippetoe Running a CrossFit Facility 0 05-11-2008 07:28 PM
Rippetoe Interview Lynne Pitts Fitness 6 09-07-2007 04:45 AM


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:23 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
CrossFit is a registered trademark of CrossFit Inc.