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Old 12-10-2007, 01:23 PM   #21
Brandon Oto
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Re: Confessions of a big box gym trainer

I agree that if this is the official position on non-affiliates using CF concepts, it should be clarified somewhere, because it is not intuitive, is not the only option, and without such instruction people are left deciding their own way how to credit CF without earning ire, such as here.
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Old 12-10-2007, 04:20 PM   #22
Eva Bigongiari
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Re: Confessions of a big box gym trainer

What has happened to this thread?
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Old 12-11-2007, 03:05 PM   #23
John Tuitele
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Re: Confessions of a big box gym trainer

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Originally Posted by Eva Bigongiari View Post
What has happened to this thread?
Eva, it was hijacked when someone was knocked off a soapbox - a crowd always gathers round to see what happened. And, I don't want to get off on a rant here, but it seems to me that.......

There's not much sense in trying to add to Jeff Martin's assessment and advice. Seems to me he has the greatest credibility as someone who knows both CF and KM camps. His advice was succinct and to the point.

Lisbeth's question went unanswered - and so I'll ask it a different way. If I put on a Krav Maga tshirt while teaching self defense in my CrossFit facility in a class called CrossMaga that uses Krav Maga principles and concepts and was accused of being a poser......should I be surprised? Particularly if I had taken Krav Maga classes and posted on their website but not adhered to their well understood and posted guidelines for Krav Maga instructor and affiliate status? I'd probably be at risk of getting my butt kicked. Or at least at risk of being confronted when I write that "...alot of KravMaga-ers assume all trainers not certified by Krav Maga have absolutely no idea about what true self defense is."

Bryan: as to your post....I hear very clearly that you "...will not put myself in a position to be sued by CrossFit (or any other company) for using their name without permission." The question that hangs out there for me is whether or not you or your staff pursued permission to acknowledge CF's contribution to the class. This is not a legal question. This is a question of what would have been the best approach: to not ask or ask permission before pressing ahead with a class that looks, walks and quacks like CF. This is a group with deep loyalties to the Glassman's and CF staff for the hard work that went before and continues on in order to share CF with us. I'll wager you've seen the same reaction within Krav Maga to folks who might have done the same thing within the KM organization you know and love. I had heard that there is a deep tradition in most martial arts to acknowledge the Sensei, Master or Sabanem. Different ethos when it rises out of IDF?

Brandon: your logic is, as always, airtight. However, as someone inside the group, the question you and I would hopefully ask isn't "where are the written guidelines for this issue." Hopefully we would ask "wonder who I should talk with to clarify the issue?" It is the difference between "show me I did something wrong" and "I gave careful thought to making sure I tried to do the right thing, regardless of policy." We've both seen examples of behavior not addressed by policy, but easily defeated by conscience.

There's a great example of doing the right thing in a situation like this. I read it several pages into a document on one well known group's new approach to "Functional Fitness." Throughout the document, I kept thinking "wait a minute, that's CF methodology" and "hey, that's a CF term." At the end of the document was this statement:

Special thanks to Coach Gregg Glassman and his Crossfit organization. Coach Glassman was instrumental in the development of the principles of this concept. There are many authorities who are now advocating the functional fitness method, but Coach Glassman’s Crossfit organization is probably the best single source representation of the ideas in this concept. Many Marines are already trying his method and realizing results. For more information on Crossfit, go to www.crossfit.com.

I'll offer that as an example of how to handle this issue correctly. No surprise that it came from the USMC. Course, I'm just an old crusty country boy with a DD214 from the USAF, so that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. Here's hoping someone from KM doesn't show up to kick my butt for this...........
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Old 12-11-2007, 08:07 PM   #24
Tom Brose
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Re: Confessions of a big box gym trainer

John, perfect. Thank you.

Eva, sorry about all that. good post, find my friend Katie King, she is a trainer in Austin into CF. Shes very cool.
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Old 12-12-2007, 07:34 AM   #25
Brandon Oto
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Re: Confessions of a big box gym trainer

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Originally Posted by John Tuitele View Post
Brandon: your logic is, as always, airtight. However, as someone inside the group, the question you and I would hopefully ask isn't "where are the written guidelines for this issue." Hopefully we would ask "wonder who I should talk with to clarify the issue?" It is the difference between "show me I did something wrong" and "I gave careful thought to making sure I tried to do the right thing, regardless of policy." We've both seen examples of behavior not addressed by policy, but easily defeated by conscience.
Maybe. But it seems clear that (if this is not what CFHQ wants) it was not an attempt to sneak away with CF's IP. So either we're calling out Connie and Bryan as liars, or we're harping on an honest mistake. You can say that it should have been obvious to anyone with a sense of ethics what to do, but I don't think so, and either way people make "obvious" errors all day long.

It's possible to be loyal to the Glassmans and Co., in respect to what they've done for us, without being attack dogs. It also yields a better image for a community that already has a reputation of zealotry.
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Old 12-12-2007, 08:51 AM   #26
John Tuitele
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Re: Confessions of a big box gym trainer

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Originally Posted by Brandon Oto View Post
So either we're calling out Connie and Bryan as liars, or we're harping on an honest mistake. You can say that it should have been obvious to anyone with a sense of ethics what to do, but I don't think so, and either way people make "obvious" errors all day long.
Overstated.

Nobody is being accused of being a liar. Name calling or implying name calling detracts from the issue. I did not say it was obvious to anyone with a sense of ethics. I said that there is often a greater rule than policy or lack of policy.

Attack dogs? Yes there is a collective of alpha personalities here, but does confronting an issue equate to being an attack dog? Zeal, simple confrontation and attack are simply not the same thing.

I've met Connie - she worked out with one of my groups when she visited here on vacation. Strikes me as someone who is friendly, intelligent, considerate and a solid performer. One of the fittest people I've ever met and a enthusiastic proponent of all things CF. If I, Lynne, Lisa Beth, Jeff or anyone else takes a different position does that mean we are malicious or disrespectful? I'll offer we can disagree without being disagreeable. Like right now - I don't agree with your points, but I suspect you are an intelligent, hard working, respectable individual.

My point is simply this: there was a better way to handle it - the Corps document gives a great example. Nothing personal or "attack dog" about it. I simply disagree with how it was handled. And, yes, I've communicated that privately as well.

Let's stick to the main issue at hand.
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Old 12-12-2007, 09:47 AM   #27
Brandon Oto
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Re: Confessions of a big box gym trainer

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Originally Posted by John Tuitele View Post
I simply disagree with how it was handled.
Looks like we're good then...
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Old 12-12-2007, 11:59 AM   #28
Jeff Martin
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Re: Confessions of a big box gym trainer

Brandon,
I am a KM instructor. Have been for about 6 years. My perspective is probably a little different than others here.
Krav Maga Association Of America has been in a battle for years to protect the Krav Maga name, standards by which it is taught, and the reputation of the founders. This was important for the continuity of the system, efficacy of the system and safety of the students.
After years of court battles KMAA lost. In my opinion to the determent of the system and danger to the students, both in terms of training and efficacy of what will be taught. They lost, because in Israel, the main KM association failed to protect the branding of KM and allowed it to become generic. Thus in Israel the term ďKrav MagaĒ means much the same thing as ďKarateĒ. With in days of losing the court battle we saw websites going up with people claiming to be KM instructors. People blending KM and AIKDO of all things.

I would think that Krav Maga instructors would understand that taking an idea that you havenít been certified to teach, changing the name and posting workouts on the internet, would be frowned upon. Iím sure Connie and Brian didnít think of this angle.

Connie and Brian,
I would liken what you are doing to someone who has years of martial arts experience who has taken Krav Maga classes deciding they are qualified to teach their version of Krav Maga. Iím glad you find the principle of CrossFit useful. Iím glad you are incorporating them into your school it will make your people safer. At Brand x we have taken many of the KM principles and applied them to our traditional Kenpo system. But we have always attributed it, and however costly the training, we sent our instructors through the KM phase training.

That being said it takes less room to run a CF facility than it does a KM one, next to nothing to be certified, and the yearly affiliation fee is about what KM charges every month. Being certified helps you to understand how to build good workouts for the various fitness levels within your school and helps ensure that you are teaching the movements safely and correctly. I understand that you do not want to be a CF facility but going through the certification would make you better, and attribution as John mentioned above is the right thing to do.
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