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Old 07-15-2011, 11:57 AM   #11
Zach S
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Re: Paleo thoughts

Im not arguing that people ate stuff besides wild game, just your opinions on wild game itself.

We are omnivores for a reason, im sure we ate anything and everything we could get our hands on. How else would we know what was poisonous or not.
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Old 07-15-2011, 12:32 PM   #12
Jason R O'Dell
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Re: Paleo thoughts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zach Schul View Post
Im not arguing that people ate stuff besides wild game, just your opinions on wild game itself.

We are omnivores for a reason, im sure we ate anything and everything we could get our hands on. How else would we know what was poisonous or not.
Bright colors?

/joke
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Old 07-15-2011, 12:40 PM   #13
Valarie Wright
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Re: Paleo thoughts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zach Schul View Post
Nine weeks and already so many opinions!
As a Yogini and CrossFitter, diet is not something I take lightly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jordan K Smith View Post
interesting read, thanks for sharing. the more i read about paleolithic nutrition and actually consider the effort required to harvest enough plants from the wild to meet 50% or anywhere near that of energy requirements, the more i'm not so sure they ate that many plants. if i were them, seems like i'd go for the bigger bang for my buck calorically: fatty meat.
Thanks for the kind words Jordan!

I agree that ‘fatty meat’ has a ‘bigger bang’, but also consider that ‘gathering’ is more than plants. This would have included eggs, water / sea life (clams, sea vegetables), small mammels, nuts / seeds, and I imagine grubs/worms .. basically anything else in arms reach.

As a wild harvester I encounter many edible items beyond plants; I just don’t collect them .. but do take note of them. Otherwise, I also think there was a means of food preservation along the lines of pemmican (more research needed on that).

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Originally Posted by Tony Sutton View Post
I like the part about, "eating close to the source." I don't follow paleo, [skip] After borrowing from your phrase, I stick with, "I eat close to the source, ..
It always works for me in a Yoga setting; where students hear me talk about the ‘source’ so know what I am referring to. Likewise, in general conversation with strangers .. saying ‘eating close to the source’ seems to create an all natural / earthy image.

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Originally Posted by Tony Sutton View Post
On another note, have you ever worked on a farm?
Mostly as a kid and teen, helping my grandparents over the summer. I have a small garden where I grow about 20-30% of what I eat. I also am a wild harvester .. so follow the seasonal offerings.

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Originally Posted by Sean Whitty View Post
Interesting read. I don't quite agree with all your points, [snip] I think it is worthwhile to investigate metabolic pathways and what biological molecules are present in the foods we are eating. This would give us a better basis for determination of a healthy diet lifestyle.
Thanks for your input Sean.

I agree on ‘metabolic pathways’; in fact, I spend a great deal of time researching health, nutrition and fitness as both part of my fulltime job (Yoga instructor, studio owner), and personal interest. Which brings me back to the source .. or at least, my local source. For instance, the idea of bioregionalism is interesting. In this instance: what we need to not just survive but be sustained, can be had in the region one lives in. (Or at least, in a pre-urbanized / industrialized setting.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zach Schul View Post
Wild game has plenty of fat and there were multitudes of wild animals roaming, unlike today. [snip] As for being easy to kill, well the native americans didnt seem to have a problem.
Having a multitude is one thing, catching one or more is quite the other. Consider those nature shows where a lion or cheetah will hunt all day, or even a few days, before catching something.

I am a primitive hunter – spear and bow. I have hunted wild boar, bear and deer .. on foot, over the course of days. This is no easy feat.

As to the AmerIndians .. I have visited Stone Age sites in both the Americas and Europe. Here, the archeological record indicates there were organized hunting groups that went out for days, perhaps weeks, at a time. These groups camped while hunting, preparing meat and hides as they traveled. In Ireland, for example, there are established hunting camps that followed migratory paths, which consisted of stone ‘baths’ for cleaning game, and fire pits for extended stays. Such sites are accompanied by middens that indicate use over very long periods of time.
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Old 07-15-2011, 12:45 PM   #14
Steven Low
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Re: Paleo thoughts

Why don't people actually read the Paleolithic diet wiki WHICH IS SOURCED BY THE WAY:

wfs
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleoli...o_animal_ratio


For example in this study of HG societies wfs
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11965522

Quote:
Abstract
OBJECTIVE:

Field studies of twentieth century hunter-gathers (HG) showed them to be generally free of the signs and symptoms of cardiovascular disease (CVD). Consequently, the characterization of HG diets may have important implications in designing therapeutic diets that reduce the risk for CVD in Westernized societies. Based upon limited ethnographic data (n=58 HG societies) and a single quantitative dietary study, it has been commonly inferred that gathered plant foods provided the dominant energy source in HG diets.
METHOD AND RESULTS:

In this review we have analyzed the 13 known quantitative dietary studies of HG and demonstrate that animal food actually provided the dominant (65%) energy source, while gathered plant foods comprised the remainder (35%). This data is consistent with a more recent, comprehensive review of the entire ethnographic data (n=229 HG societies) that showed the mean subsistence dependence upon gathered plant foods was 32%, whereas it was 68% for animal foods. Other evidence, including isotopic analyses of Paleolithic hominid collagen tissue, reductions in hominid gut size, low activity levels of certain enzymes, and optimal foraging data all point toward a long history of meat-based diets in our species. Because increasing meat consumption in Western diets is frequently associated with increased risk for CVD mortality, it is seemingly paradoxical that HG societies, who consume the majority of their energy from animal food, have been shown to be relatively free of the signs and symptoms of CVD.
CONCLUSION:

The high reliance upon animal-based foods would not have necessarily elicited unfavorable blood lipid profiles because of the hypolipidemic effects of high dietary protein (19-35% energy) and the relatively low level of dietary carbohydrate (22-40% energy). Although fat intake (28-58% energy) would have been similar to or higher than that found in Western diets, it is likely that important qualitative differences in fat intake, including relatively high levels of MUFA and PUFA and a lower omega-6/omega-3 fatty acid ratio, would have served to inhibit the development of CVD. Other dietary characteristics including high intakes of antioxidants, fiber, vitamins and phytochemicals along with a low salt intake may have operated synergistically with lifestyle characteristics (more exercise, less stress and no smoking) to further deter the development of CVD.
As you can see they quote "general" ratios of HG macronutrient intakes which are

Carb: 22-40% --- WHICH IS BY NO MEANS LOW CARB
protein: 19-35% --- which is by no means low or high protein
fats: 28-58% -- which is actually higher than almost everyone and their mom organizations in the US recommend.

Plants based foods tend to be all carbohydrate which is why the average is about 32-35% plant foods.
Animal based foods tend to be all protein and fats which is why it's at 65-68% animal foods. Of which the macronutrients of protein and fats are the 19-35 and 25-38% respectively.

Thus, on average is carbs is 33%, and animals are the leanest they could be at 35% protein, you're still getting about 32% of kcals from fats. That's not exactly "lean" meat. And that is the minimum. Wild animals actually have a lot of fats on them as you can see from Kurt Harris' site.

Of course that's because the fats are good fats. Not trans fats and vegetable oils like we have now.
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Last edited by Steven Low : 07-15-2011 at 12:48 PM.
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Old 07-15-2011, 12:52 PM   #15
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Re: Paleo thoughts

Okay while I'm at it I'll rant some more.


Low carb paleo is a fantasy for daily living.

Ketogenic and low carb paleo are useful for people with metabolic, cardiovascular, and neurodegenerative disease where people NEED instant change because their insulin and whatever else is massively screwed up.

These diets provide massive improvements in blood lipid profiles, insulin sensitivity, and whatever else.

BUt if you're relatively healthy this type of diet is not sustainable and should not be used chronically.

Remember, almost all HG societies say they're starving when they run out of whatever carbohydrate source (whether it be potatoes, rice, etc.) EVEN if they still have meats available.

They know living off meat isn't particular sustainable unless you're relatively adapted for that sort of living (see eskimos).

Although it can be done I don't think you will be able to thrive on that. Especially if you do physical activity where you need a sustainable level of carbs to do activity.
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Old 07-15-2011, 12:54 PM   #16
Zach S
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Re: Paleo thoughts

Valarie, no offense but i dont think you can compare yourself with a hunter of the past.
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Old 07-15-2011, 12:58 PM   #17
Bill M. Hesse
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Re: Paleo thoughts

Geeze Steve, we are trying to speculate and overthink here. Then you come in with all these numbers and stuff....sheesh
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Old 07-15-2011, 12:59 PM   #18
Zach S
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Re: Paleo thoughts

My original post was aiming at the fact that you have been eating this way for a little over two months. While its great that you are very interested in it, i would like to hear your thoughts after several years of experience, not months. Thats just me so i will leave now since there is no point in arguing, good luck with your site and journey.c

Last edited by Zach S : 07-15-2011 at 01:02 PM.
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Old 07-15-2011, 01:14 PM   #19
Jason R O'Dell
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Re: Paleo thoughts

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Originally Posted by Zach Schul View Post
My original post was aiming at the fact that you have been eating this way for a little over two months. While its great that you are very interested in it, i would like to hear your thoughts after several years of experience, not months. Thats just me so i will leave now since there is no point in arguing, good luck with your site and journey.c
Damn her! Burn her at the stake! She's obviously a witch to have formulated these....these.........opinions! Just saying the word makes me almost vomit!
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Old 07-15-2011, 01:39 PM   #20
Valarie Wright
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Re: Paleo thoughts

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Valarie, no offense but i dont think you can compare yourself with a hunter of the past.
I dont how you came to the conclusion that I was Zach.

I simple stated that I have experience primitive hunting; or the type of hunting closest to Paleolithic peoples. As such, I can attest that such hunting is not easy, but requires huge amounts of time and energy expenditure.
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