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Old 06-17-2011, 06:55 AM   #21
Luke Seubert
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Re: Why is the Paleo diet is the worst out there? Find out.

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Originally Posted by Todd R Bailey View Post
Luke, I'd be interested in reading any papers or articles you've read on the subject, if you have the links handy. From what I've read, the opposite seems to be true. For example, in a Paleo Newsletter, Loren Cordain stated:

"We are currently in the process of compiling meal times and patterns in the worlds historically studied hunter-gatherers. If any single picture is beginning to emerge, it clearly is not three meals per day plus snacking ala the typical U.S. grazing pattern.... The most consistent daily eating pattern that is beginning to emerge from the ethnographic literature in hunter-gatherers is that of a large single meal which was consumed in the late afternoon or evening. A midday meal or lunch was rarely or never consumed and a small breakfast (consisting of the remainders of the previous evening meal) was sometimes eaten. Some snacking may have occurred during daily gathering, however the bulk of the daily calories were taken in the late afternoon or evening."
http://www.trackyourplaque.com/blog/...frequency.html (wfs)
Todd, my source for multiple meals per day on the Paleo Diet comes from "The Paleo Diet, Revised Edition", by Loren Cordain. In Chapter 2, under the subheading, "Meal Preparation and Typical Meals", Cordain talks about consuming several main meals per day, along with paleo snacks in between meals.

I looked over the webpage you cited. There is selection bias at work here. Virtually all of the hunter-gatherer examples presented were hunter-gatherers who got most of their calories from meat and fat. So, their main source of food was from hunted meat. It logically follows that they would eat a large meal once per day, with an occasional missed day.

However, not all hunter-gatherer peoples got most of their calories from meat and fat. Some HGs got substantial calories from plants, such as the Aboriginies of Australia. Those HGs who ate significant amount of plant foods, in addition to meat and fat, grazed throughout the day. Think about a mother toting a baby and walking through the bush, picking and plucking various plants and fruits and nuts, eating as she goes and feeding baby as well.

We guys like to think that our hunting prowess reigned supreme in Paleolithic times. The truth is, women, who did most of the gathering, were able to more consistently produce food calories day to day. The men, who did the hunting, were more hit and miss. Anybody who has ever done any actual hunting knows the truth of this. In most HG societies, women are beasts of burden who do most of the hard work, while the men produce an occasional, and very necessary, animal to eat.

Todd, let me conclude though by conceding your point. Paleo Diet = intermittant and large meals.

I don't care. I am on a PaleoZone diet designed to produce significant fat loss. That diet does require multiple meals throughout the day. This is especially true for me, as my genes make me very carbohydrate sensitive, and I thus have to be very careful about moderating my insulin levels throughout the day, in order to lose fat. The PaleoZone diet does that. A Paleo Diet as you describe it, would not work for me, though it might work for others. Moreover, I have videos on my computer in which both Greg Glassman and Nicole Carrol advocate a PaleoZone diet with weighing and measuring of food for optimum CrossFit performance.
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Old 06-17-2011, 06:58 AM   #22
Todd R Bailey
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Re: Why is the Paleo diet is the worst out there? Find out.

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Originally Posted by Luke Seubert View Post
Exclusive consumption of very high protein, low fat meats is called the "rabbit diet". ...

The turkey diet is a rabbit diet - very high protein, very low fat. It is unbalanced and unhealthy."
I agree that eating nothing but turkey would not be healthy. But I think John was giving one example, not stating that his entire diet consists only of turkey. Since I'm assuming he doesn't live with daily bouts of crippling diarrhea and headaches, he probably getting an adequate amount of fats and carbs in his diet (even given his high protein intake).
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Old 06-17-2011, 07:15 AM   #23
Todd R Bailey
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Re: Why is the Paleo diet is the worst out there? Find out.

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Originally Posted by Luke Seubert View Post
I am on a PaleoZone diet designed to produce significant fat loss. That diet does require multiple meals throughout the day. This is especially true for me, as my genes make me very carbohydrate sensitive, and I thus have to be very careful about moderating my insulin levels throughout the day, in order to lose fat. The PaleoZone diet does that. A Paleo Diet as you describe it, would not work for me, though it might work for others. Moreover, I have videos on my computer in which both Greg Glassman and Nicole Carrol advocate a PaleoZone diet with weighing and measuring of food for optimum CrossFit performance.
Best of luck with the diet! I wasn't trying to be confrontational, I'm genuinely curious when I see opinions on Paleo that are different than what I've read. I think the biggest step is moving to a real foods diet and ditching the processed foods, industrial oils and sugar. After that, people need to experiment to see what works with them. If the gains you're making now stall or plateau, don't be afraid to check out IF. There is evidence that fasted training is great for glucose tolerance and insulin sensitivity. (http://jp.physoc.org/content/early/2....2010.196493v1) (wfs)
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Old 06-17-2011, 07:38 AM   #24
Andrew James
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Re: Why is the Paleo diet is the worst out there? Find out.

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Originally Posted by Luke Seubert View Post
The men, who did the hunting, were more hit and miss. Anybody who has ever done any actual hunting knows the truth of this.
Hunting implies the possibility of failure. That's why Chuck Norris doesn't go hunting, he goes killing.
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Old 06-17-2011, 07:53 AM   #25
Arturo Garcia
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Re: Why is the Paleo diet is the worst out there? Find out.

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Originally Posted by Veronica Carpenter View Post
Maybe I searched too quickly, but does that thread contain a link to the article I linked? Because I did not see it.
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Old 06-17-2011, 08:45 AM   #26
Rebecca Roth
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Re: Why is the Paleo diet is the worst out there? Find out.

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Maybe I searched too quickly, but does that thread contain a link to the article I linked? Because I did not see it.
It doesn't, the link you posted was written as a response to the US News article in the post Veronica linked. The Gnolls site is one I am always happy to see whenever it pops up here or on FB, but for some reason I never remember to check it for new posts... So thanks for linking it
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Old 06-23-2011, 05:40 AM   #27
John A. Smith
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Re: Why is the Paleo diet is the worst out there? Find out.

American Diabetes Association ties to Big Pharma (wfs)

a list of the ADA's top corporate sponsors. (wfs)
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Old 06-23-2011, 07:08 AM   #28
Dave Hancock
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Re: Why is the Paleo diet is the worst out there? Find out.

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I can easily throw down 10lbs of meat a day.
Adam Richman?

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Old 06-27-2011, 04:31 AM   #29
Luke Seubert
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Re: Why is the Paleo diet is the worst out there? Find out.

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Originally Posted by Todd R Bailey View Post
Best of luck with the diet! I wasn't trying to be confrontational, I'm genuinely curious when I see opinions on Paleo that are different than what I've read. I think the biggest step is moving to a real foods diet and ditching the processed foods, industrial oils and sugar. After that, people need to experiment to see what works with them. If the gains you're making now stall or plateau, don't be afraid to check out IF. There is evidence that fasted training is great for glucose tolerance and insulin sensitivity. (http://jp.physoc.org/content/early/2....2010.196493v1) (wfs)
Hi Todd. My apologies for the long delay in replying to your post. Life got busy, and then I got caught up in other posts. Also, in considering a reply to this post, I realized that I would have to go into one of my nutrition spreadsheets and do a lot of calculations, and so I didn't post right away and delayed. This is a pretty typical passive-aggressive move on my part, something I am trying to change.

First off, I never felt that you were being confrontational. Rather, I thought we were presenting differing ideas with supporting evidence in a healthy debate. That is vigorous discussion, and so long as politeness and respect are present, it is a very good thing. I hope you felt the same way about the discussion. Sometimes I can get a little too enthusiastic and "spirited" in my online debates, which can offend some people. If such was the case in this instance, my apologies.

All that said, I think you and I have found agreement on a fairly large middle ground, with some differences remaining, which I will respectfully address in a different post. I have bookmarked the paper you cited about occasional fasting assisting in weight loss in high protein diets, as well as Cordain's observations about intermittent fasting by hunter-gatherers. While this information is not useful to me right now, I suspect the day is coming when it will be. At some point in my fat loss program, I will reach a plateau when my body hits some sort of bodyfat setpoint. When that happens, I'll have to try differing techniques to break through the plateau. Your idea will be one of the first I try.

Also, I realized that some of the points I raised were very specific to my unique circumstances - high carbohydrate sensitivity (aka "Metabolism B") and the need for a long term and very rigorous fat loss regimen. While my ideas work well for me, they might not apply quite so well to typical CrossFitters, whereas your ideas would. I'll bear this in mind with my future posts.

In conclusion, lest you think I have gone all huggy-cuddly on you, fear not! I pick up the debate in another post which I write up soon.
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Old 06-27-2011, 05:40 AM   #30
Luke Seubert
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Re: Why is the Paleo diet is the worst out there? Find out.

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Originally Posted by Todd R Bailey View Post
I agree that eating nothing but turkey would not be healthy. But I think John was giving one example, not stating that his entire diet consists only of turkey. Since I'm assuming he doesn't live with daily bouts of crippling diarrhea and headaches, he probably getting an adequate amount of fats and carbs in his diet (even given his high protein intake).
Let's back up earlier in the thread and recall that John stated that he dropped the Paleo Diet because it was too expensive - eating all that meat everyday. He then cited an example of eating 14 pounds of turkey meat from late Sunday morning through early Tuesday morning (times are estimated from inferences in John's post), which is 14 pounds of turkey over the equivalent of two days. I ran the numbers which show 14 pounds of turkey with skin is about 11,000 calories with an unhealthy protein to fat ratio of 70% to 30%. That is 5,500 calories per day, which is a LOT of calories. John had better be a very big guy doing lots and lots of exercise to justify that kind of caloric intake.

Todd, you then said, quite rightly, that John was probably eating some fat and carbs with all that turkey, to avoid the ill effects of the "rabbit diet". OK, let's assume that he did just that, and let's speculate about the numbers. How about a high protein diet of 50% of calories from protein, 35% from fat, and 15% from carbs.

Let's begin with that 14 pounds of turkey, which is 11,000 calories with a 70:30 protein to fat ratio, yielding 1,925 grams of protein and 367 grams of fat. In order to get P:C:F to 50:15:35, John has to add 233 grams of fat and 580 grams of carbohydrate to that turkey he ate in two days. Here is the breakdown:
P 50% 1,925 g 7,700 c
C 15% 580 g 2,230 c
F 35% 600 g 5,400 c
Total calories? 15,420. Calories per day? 7,710.

Todd, even if you twiddle those P:C:F ratios, no matter what, you come out with an absolutely huge daily caloric intake. Very, very few people can pull down that many calories day after day - elite athletes training hard and people doing long hours of hard physical labor - that's it. And they had better be large, muscular males too.

And don't forget, this is a Paleo diet, featuring Paleo carbohydrates which have low caloric density and high nutrient density; unlike grains, legumes, and dairy, which have high caloric density but low nutrient density. What does this mean? John, in addition to chowing down on 7 pounds of meat each day, would have to eat huge - really, really huge - amounts of vegetables and fruits to hit 290 grams of carbohydrates per day.

In the end, when you look at the hard numbers and the nutrients, what John was proposing was not at all a sensible Paleo diet. Is the Paleo diet high in protein, relative to conventional diet recommendations? Yes. But is it extremely high in protein? No. Moreover, the Paleo diet moderates that high protein with essential high fat intake, and healthy carb intake. The Paleo diet is more moderate and balanced than many people suppose, even though it is very different from conventional nutritional recommendations.
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