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Old 06-17-2011, 03:03 AM   #11
Luke Seubert
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Re: Why is the Paleo diet is the worst out there? Find out.

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Originally Posted by David Z Sachs View Post
Interesting article, I always thought that a more paleo-type diet wasn't recommended by governments because of sustainability. Theres very few people eating 1.5-2lbs of meat a day with a large amount of vegetables. We certainly couldn't sustain any of the larger populations of the world doing it, though the profit on grains makes sense as well.
David, you are right - using current farming methods, a paleo diet for everyone is not sustainable. However, by switching over to things like microscale aquaponics, it is possible to provide a healthy paleo diet to everyone in the world at a reasonable cost. But.... it requires a paradigm shift in agriculture - a new blend of permaculture and modern technology. Don't hold your breath - we humans won't do it unless we are forced to do it.
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Old 06-17-2011, 03:22 AM   #12
Luke Seubert
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Re: Why is the Paleo diet is the worst out there? Find out.

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Originally Posted by John A. Smith View Post
In reference to my previous post, I baked a 24lb turkey on a Sunday. By the end of my first meal Tuesday morning, breakfast, I finished off that bad boy. I don't know how much weight of a 24lb turkey is bones.
A whole turkey, roasted not baked, yields about 56% to 60% meat. So your turkey produced somewhere between 13.4 and 14.4 pounds of actual meat.

Assuming you ate the skin along with the meat, you consumed between 10,500 and 11,200 calories. 70% of those calories were protein, while 30% were fat.

Neither the Paleo diet nor the Zone diet call for that much protein consumption. According to Drs Loren Cordain and Eaton Boyd, protein should be roughly 30% of total calories consumed each day. According to Dr Barry Sears, even the fittest of athletes should not consume more than 45 grams of protein in any one meal. Excess protein consumption leads to excess cortisol levels, which is not good for your health. This is why he recommends that people balance their macronutrients for optimum hormone levels.

As the ancient Greeks said, "Moderation in all things."
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Old 06-17-2011, 04:33 AM   #13
Dave Traeger
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Re: Why is the Paleo diet is the worst out there? Find out.

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Originally Posted by Luke Seubert View Post
Assuming you ate the skin along with the meat, you consumed between 10,500 and 11,200 calories. 70% of those calories were protein, while 30% were fat.
He said it was from Sunday to Tuesday, so likely 5-6 meals. 2k calories per meal is acceptable.
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Old 06-17-2011, 05:09 AM   #14
Luke Seubert
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Re: Why is the Paleo diet is the worst out there? Find out.

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Originally Posted by Dave Traeger View Post
He said it was from Sunday to Tuesday, so likely 5-6 meals. 2k calories per meal is acceptable.
Dave, I'm not sure I get the math here. For a large male doing a LOT of physical activity, yes, 2,000 calories per meal is acceptable, assuming 3 meals per day. Note though, that both the Zone and Paleo diets recommend more than three meals per day, with fewer calories per meal.

However, 2000 calories of turkey per meal equals 1400 calories worth of protein per meal, which is 350 grams of protein per meal. And 1,050 grams of protein per day at three meals per day. I'm sorry, but neither the Paleo Diet nor the Zone Diet recommend such massive protein intake. Nobody does - except really huge bodybuilders sucking down tons of vile, illegal anabolic steroids during a muscle mass building phase - and maybe not even that much. Protein at those levels is toxic over time.

Can you do it for a few days? Yeah, sure. But why? It is unhealthy and extreme. Paleo and Zone diets are moderate and balanced and very healthy. Both diets require the consumption of healthy complex carbohydrates in the form of vegetables and fruits, preferably low in glycemic index, along with healthy proteins and fats.

I do not see any way that eating 13 to 14 pounds of turkey over 2 1/2 days fits within the parameters of a healthy and correct Zone or Paleo diet. Sorry.
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Old 06-17-2011, 05:30 AM   #15
Todd R Bailey
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Re: Why is the Paleo diet is the worst out there? Find out.

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Originally Posted by Luke Seubert View Post
Note though, that both the Zone and Paleo diets recommend more than three meals per day, with fewer calories per meal.
I don't know about Zone, but I have not seen a recommendation to eat more than three meals per day when eating Paleo. Pretty sure the advice is to eat real food when you're hungry and stop when you're full. If that's two meals a day, fine, if it's five, then go for it. If anything, I see a lot of "Paleo" people practicing intermittent fasting with less frequent larger meals.

See also here: http://www.jissn.com/content/1/1/45#B4 (wfs) (Journal article citing lack of evidence that high protein diet has adverse health effects.)

Last edited by Todd R Bailey : 06-17-2011 at 05:45 AM.
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Old 06-17-2011, 05:56 AM   #16
Luke Seubert
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Re: Why is the Paleo diet is the worst out there? Find out.

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Originally Posted by Todd R Bailey View Post
I don't know about Zone, but I have not seen a recommendation to eat more than three meals per day when eating Paleo. Pretty sure the advice is to eat real food when you're hungry and stop when you're full. If that's two meals a day, fine, if it's five, then go for it. If anything, I see a lot of "Paleo" people practicing intermittent fasting with less frequent larger meals.
Todd, that is an interesting point you raise. I was not aware that such was the practice of many Paleo dieters.

However, eating fewer but larger meals per day seems contrary to the eating behaviors observed in contemporary hunter-gatherers. Anthropologists note that many HGs follow a "grazing" eating pattern, in which they pick and eat as they go throughout the day. This is especially true of plant based foods, which almost all HG societies consume, oftentimes in large quantities.

That said, the protein based foods might be eaten less frequently and in larger quantity. So when it comes to meat and fat, your point might well be right. But for carbohydrates, it is steady plant grazing throughout the day for modern hunter-gatherers, and so very likely the same for our Paleolithic ancestors.

As for the Zone, Dr Barry Sears recommends five, preferably six, small meals per day. Or three larger meals, with two to three snack meals. Eating lots of small meals throughout the day helps to moderate blood glucose and insulin levels as well as glucagon levels, which helps to signal the body to burn fat, not store it. When following the Zone to maintain bodyweight, multiple meals still moderates key hormones to ensure good health.
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Old 06-17-2011, 06:16 AM   #17
adam adkins
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Re: Why is the Paleo diet is the worst out there? Find out.

predators gorge and fast; prey grazes.
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Old 06-17-2011, 06:18 AM   #18
Luke Seubert
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Re: Why is the Paleo diet is the worst out there? Find out.

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Originally Posted by Todd R Bailey View Post
See also here: http://www.jissn.com/content/1/1/45#B4 (wfs) (Journal article citing lack of evidence that high protein diet has adverse health effects.)
Todd, you are right that high protein diets can be healthy, so long as they are balanced with sufficient fat content. However, extremely high levels of protein with not much fat and little or no carbs is a toxic diet. There is a difference.

Let's go back to our original example with the 14 pounds of turkey meat. Check out the nutritional breakdown on a whole roasted turkey with skin at: NutritionData.self.com (WFS).

As you can see, a whole roasted turkey with skin is 70% protein, and 30% fat. Turkeys are pretty lean as meats go. They also have an excellent nutrient profile and amino acid score by comparison to chicken. Truly, turkey is the king of poultry meats. That is why I eat turkey as part of my PaleoZone diet. Great stuff. But it is only great in moderation.

Exclusive consumption of very high protein, low fat meats is called the "rabbit diet". Why "rabbit diet"? Because rabbit meat is very high protein, very low fat. People who eat the rabbit diet over a long period of time develop all sorts of illnesses. This was medically documented by arctic exploration expeditions that wound up, for various reasons, eating lots of very lean meat, and regretting the experience. See Taubes or Cordain for more info.

Contrast the rabbit diet with the very high meat, high fat diet consumed by the pre-modern Inuit peoples living in the Arctic circle. Over 90% of their caloric intake came from protein and fat, and yet they were very healthy. How? They ate a lot of nutrient rich organ meats, and lots of fat to go along with the muscle meat. They ate from a wide variety of meat sources - caribou, seal, fish, etc. They ate lots of fat and lots of protein, but in a far more balanced way than the rabbit diet.

The turkey diet is a rabbit diet - very high protein, very low fat. It is unbalanced and unhealthy. Can high protein diets be safe and healthy? Yes, but only when balanced with nutrient rich organ meats and fats.

Again, like the ancient Greeks said, "Moderation in all things."
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Old 06-17-2011, 06:22 AM   #19
Todd R Bailey
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Re: Why is the Paleo diet is the worst out there? Find out.

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Originally Posted by Luke Seubert View Post
However, eating fewer but larger meals per day seems contrary to the eating behaviors observed in contemporary hunter-gatherers. Anthropologists note that many HGs follow a "grazing" eating pattern, in which they pick and eat as they go throughout the day.
Luke, I'd be interested in reading any papers or articles you've read on the subject, if you have the links handy. From what I've read, the opposite seems to be true. For example, in a Paleo Newsletter, Loren Cordain stated:

"We are currently in the process of compiling meal times and patterns in the worlds historically studied hunter-gatherers. If any single picture is beginning to emerge, it clearly is not three meals per day plus snacking ala the typical U.S. grazing pattern.... The most consistent daily eating pattern that is beginning to emerge from the ethnographic literature in hunter-gatherers is that of a large single meal which was consumed in the late afternoon or evening. A midday meal or lunch was rarely or never consumed and a small breakfast (consisting of the remainders of the previous evening meal) was sometimes eaten. Some snacking may have occurred during daily gathering, however the bulk of the daily calories were taken in the late afternoon or evening."
http://www.trackyourplaque.com/blog/...frequency.html (wfs)
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Old 06-17-2011, 06:23 AM   #20
Luke Seubert
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Re: Why is the Paleo diet is the worst out there? Find out.

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Originally Posted by adam adkins View Post
predators gorge and fast; prey grazes.
Heh. Cape Buffalo graze. And yet, lions rarely challenge a healthy adult Cape Buffalo. Hmmmmm.

Predators are mostly carnivores, while prey are mostly herbivores. But humans, the supreme alpha predator on this planet, are omnivores.
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