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Exercises Movements, technique & proper execution

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Old 10-21-2005, 09:40 AM   #1
Neal Winkler
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From my understanding of what I have read about the World Class Coaching O-lift tapes, they do not teach plantar flexion, but instead the plantar flexion is somewhat of an illusion that is created by descending under the bar at such a quick velocity. Is this correct?

If so, that brings me to another question. Crossfitters are aware of the property of olympic lifts for increasing the vertical jump, and studies have been conducted that show this. However, it is most likely the case these studies were done on athletes who do use plantar flexion as a means of increasing the velocity of the bar, as that is the method imployed by most olympic lifters (source: http://www.coachesinfo.com/category/...ditioning/237/). If so, do you believe that the WCC method would perhaps lessen the development of the vertical jump by olympic lifters due to lack of plantar flexion? Now, I would assume that the WCC method would still increase VJ due to the application of the stretch reflex used to initiate the second pull, but it seems to me that the exclusion of plantar flexion would decrease the lifts effects on vertical jump.

But I may have WCC's method all wrong, as I havn't seen the tape myself.

Also, the main point of the doing O-lifts is not to increase ones vertical, so I am by no means suggesting that the WCC's method is an inferior method if it does in fact have less of an effect on vertical jump height.
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Old 10-21-2005, 10:42 AM   #2
Veronica Carpenter
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Hmm, interesting question. So, what did I do? Tried jumping WITH and W/out plantar flexion. My vertical was slighty higher with plantar flexion than without. I tried it with my kids as well, same result. It just seemed to akward NOT to plantar flex.

Wondering what others' results will be?
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Old 10-21-2005, 12:52 PM   #3
Neal Winkler
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Oh no, I wasn't asking which is better when you actually jump, I am asking which method of O-lifting is better for building your vertical jump.

I am wondering if the WCC method has any effect on the observed vertical jump capabilities of O-lifters.
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Old 10-21-2005, 01:22 PM   #4
Veronica Carpenter
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As an OLer I was taught to "jump with the bar" It's natural for me to plantar flex when I jump. Isn't it natural for most people? Seems less functional and counterproductive to change they way you jump to increase your vertical. But that's just my unscientific POV.
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Old 10-21-2005, 03:56 PM   #5
Josh Everett
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Coach Glassman talks allot about core to extremity violations that cause poor form and/or less efficient/power movement. Basically if you use/activate a joint/muscle that is far away from the center body (low abs, hip flexor, upper thigh, low back, glute, upper hamstring) before one that is closer to that region it screws you up. All human movement origionates (or should) from the center body. We are most powerfull/strong there and less so as you radiate out away from that region. So the majority of your vertical jump comes from the center body with a slight final boost from the calves. The reason why Oly lifts help improve vert is they dramatically increase the strength and power in your center body. a Flatfooted 2nd pull(jump phase)in O-lifting utilizes the powerfull muscle of the center body. A 2nd pull while focusing on driving off the toes would decrease the use of the core and increase the calf involvement. This reason along with center of gravity issues is why MOST olylifters try to stay flatfooted as long as possible. To make a long story short if useing the o-lifts to increase vert my advice would be to stay flatfooted. I'm not that smart though so i could be wrong.
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Old 10-22-2005, 01:33 AM   #6
Veronica Carpenter
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josh, I'm only guessing here as well, but you said, "Basically if you use/activate a joint/muscle that is far away from the center body ...BEFORE one that is closer to that region it screws you up"

I take this as meaning "TIMING IS EVERYTHING" Most definitely you want to stay flatfooted as long as possible through the 1st and most of the 2nd pull. AND the focus should be "Drive through the heels" Plantar flexion only occurs at the very end of the 2nd pull/jump phase. I don't know if plantar flexion makes THAT big a difference on development of the vertical jump, but have always been taught through my years of training, when working pulls, to "FINISH TALL" and up on my toes.

I could be wrong, but I'm willing to bet that if you take a frame by frame of top lifters, at the height of their second pull, when their feet lose contact with the floor, their feet will be plantar flexed. I know mine are:
http://www.crossfit.com/discus/messages/22/15251.jpg

I'm not familiar with the WCC methods so I'm wondering if it isn't so much that they preach against plantar flexion but rather the fact that they don't emphasize it and it just happens naturally.



(Message edited by vgcarp on October 22, 2005)
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Old 10-22-2005, 08:34 AM   #7
Lincoln Brigham
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Interesting question.

Kahki pulls flat-footed. Never plantar flexes. Watch him lift, you barely see his heels come off the ground. Heck, he doesn't even completely extend his knees. He won 3 gold medals that way. Dimas is nearly as flat-footed.

Boevski, on the other hand, extends his ankle as the bar passes the knees. Set world records and won gold medals doing that. Core-to-extremety violation? Maybe, maybe not. Right as the bar passes the knees, the knees are as extended as they are going to get during the first pull. They are nearly completely extended. In fact, the next thing they are going to do is flex. So why not extend the ankle at that time? And leave them extended? Why not extend the ankles during the double knee bend, when the bar loses acceleration? It will generate extra elevation on the bar at a time when the tendancy is to lose acceleration. That way, when the bar reaches the top of the second pull it has more elevation than it would if the lifter was flat-footed. (See my post on Sagir Taner)

The chief problem I see with an early ankle extension is that it tends to pull the bar out of position in exchange for a very small increase in velocity or elevation. Very tough to coach and learn. But some lifters do it, with success.

I've got a picture of myself somewhere around here pulling a snatch with 72.5kg, looks nearly identical to Veronica's position. Ankles completely extended, hips and knees extended, body position just a little past vertical, arms just starting to bend as the pull-under begins.
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Old 10-22-2005, 09:07 AM   #8
Josh Everett
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Veronica,
in the picture posted of you lifting your arms are already bent...telling me that you are pulling your body under the bar and are no longer putting vertical momentum & elevation on the bar. is it possible that your feet were flat thru the 2nd pull and you went up on your toes as you began the 3rd pull? As for me I bend my arms way too soon all the time, it's why I'm not very good, well that and a forward dip on my jerks :-)
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Old 10-22-2005, 10:50 AM   #9
Veronica Carpenter
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I've got a picture of myself somewhere around here pulling a snatch with 72.5kg, looks nearly identical to Veronica's position. Ankles completely extended, hips and knees extended, body position just a little past vertical, arms just starting to bend as the pull-under begins.

Lincoln, maybe THAT's why we're not World Champions! (I don't count Master's) ;)

Josh, yeah, I noticed that arm bend. I was sure someone sharp eyes here would notice too! ;) To be honest I'm not sure where in my pull I am in that pic. It wasn't a great training day, so could be my pulls were off. But I have watched video clips of myself in action. In the C&J I have a tendency to barely displace, if I displace at all. (Coach Steve Gough once told me I won't be able to move the big weights until I move my feet!) The clips where I miss my cleans, my ankles barely extend at all. The successful clips there is plantar flexion, some more than others and sometimes not a full extension of the ankles.

MAYBE THIS IS SUCH A MINOR CONSIDERATION IN DEVELOPMENT OF VERTICAL JUMP THAT WE REALLY DON'T NEED TO DEBATE IT AT ALL AND JUST TRAIN HARD!
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Old 10-22-2005, 03:35 PM   #10
Kenneth Urakawa
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That is an awesome picture, by the way...
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