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Old 05-17-2005, 08:44 AM   #1
Erik Reckdenwald
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Reading through the new Performance Menu, I saw that dairy isn't favorable in the Paleo Diet. This came as a large dissapointment, since I love milk, cheese, etc. but I was wondering a few things. How much is too much? What are the best/worst dairy sources? Would cutting dairy out of my diet would make a positive impact? Finally, do most of you take a calcium suppliment instead of getting it from dairy?
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Old 05-17-2005, 11:14 AM   #2
Jason Simpkins
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Erik,

Ditch the dairy:

http://www.notmilk.com/

Your best sources are veggies (especially leafy greens), sesame seeds, sockeye salmon and sardines (bones and all), goats yogurt (closer to human breast milk than cow dairy) and almonds.

The great thing about green veggies is that not only are they a good source of calcium, but they make your blood PH more alkaline, therefore you actually require less calcium. Cow's milk is a highly acid forming food, causing calcium to be leached from the bones in order to regulate blood PH.

Look around the world at all of the cultures with the highest rates of dairy consumption. They also happen to be the cultures with the highest rates of osteoporosis. Makes you wonder...
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Old 05-18-2005, 07:48 AM   #3
Ben Kaminski
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Firstly, I agree that milk is generally bad. However-

Does anyone think it is important to distinguish between milk, butter, sour cream, cheese, yogurt, etc?

Also, while dairy products might not meet the definition of a paleo food, neither does chicken breasts with olive oil. The paleo diet espoused by Dr. Cordain seems like it is trying to replace the fat and organ meats of wild animals which are no longer accessible with fat-free muscle meats and vegetable oils. This is not how our ancestors ate, and produces a diet very low in saturated fats and animal fats in general.

For this reason I include butter and sour cream in my diet, and cheese sometimes as well. The acidity of these foods is also something to consider and balance out.

Erik, I would suggest trying to cut dairy out, or cut out most of it (milk for sure), and see how you feel for a week or two. Allow time for any withdrawal that may be experienced to wane. Post your response at the end of whatever trial you adopt, it would help us all to read your experience!
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Old 05-18-2005, 10:37 AM   #4
Jason Simpkins
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Ben,

You can still eat organ meats today, as long as they come from "clean" sources such as those found in free range grass fed animals. I myself eat calves liver once a week which is an incredible source of B-vitamins, iron, protein etc.

If you want to use butter as a part of your diet, try this kind:

http://www.drrons.com/x-factor_butter_oil.htm

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Old 05-18-2005, 12:02 PM   #5
Woody Davis
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Two things: all diary is bad, but some is worse and for different reasons. All diary except for cheese has a high glycemic load even though its glycemic index is lower. Check the article on thepaleodiet.com
Second, cheese is VERY acidic acording to the above mentioned website and that's not good for you either.

I used to drink whole milk every day and loved cheese. I cut all milk out and most cheese. I had some horrible food cravings when I did this and over time those cravings have gotten better. Don't know if they were related to the milk or if it was just coincidence.
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Old 05-18-2005, 12:15 PM   #6
Jason Simpkins
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Check this out cheese lovers...

http://www.notmilk.com/deb/flojoms.html
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Old 05-18-2005, 01:43 PM   #7
Matt O'Donnell
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Just throwing this out there:

What do people think about whey and casein protein powders? They're dairy products after all...

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Old 05-18-2005, 01:51 PM   #8
Jason Simpkins
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Matt,

Avoid casein protein despite what some experts say. It is an allergen to most people whether they realize it or not and can be difficult to digest causing gastrointestinal issues (gas, cramps, bloating). Besides it is used in the making of furniture for glue. Not something I want in my body.

Stick with low temperature, cross flow micro filtration whey isolates. They are the best absorbed (especially post workout) and they contain the all important subfraction peptides that help boost the immune system and raise glutathione levels to fight free radical damage. Also make certain to find a brand that does not contain artificial sweeteners such as acesulfame-k, aspartame, sucralose etc.
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Old 05-18-2005, 02:17 PM   #9
Ben Kaminski
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I'm afraid I simply don't believe everything I read.

The notmilk website appears to me to be a muddle of any internet material that can possibly be used to argue against dairy products. While I only glanced at several articles, I noticed the absence of citations, the prominent use of unjustified statements, and in general, poor, poor writing style. I find it difficult to place credibility with information presented that seems biased or unjustified. While none of this affects the actual debate going on in this thread about the goodness or badness of dairy products, in my humble opinion the use of such unscientific resources does not lend any support whatsoever to the argument that milk is bad for you. I am certainly still interested in this topic, but still unswayed by the arguments using what I consider to be unscientific resources.
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Old 05-18-2005, 04:45 PM   #10
Robert Wolf
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Ben-

Check out Cordains site for "scientific" information.

Jason-

Great information! I would only add that for folks with serious wheat/gluton alergies virtually all dairy proteins can be problematic form a gut inflamation perspective.

My presonal approach to this is not to be a paleo purist but rather to get to some point in which what makes sense, what works and what is livable all co-exist. For example, I drink A LOT of espresso. I can make some rationalizations that it is actually good for me (use the search function regarding coffee/cafeine) now this might not be true, it is certainly not "paleo" but without my bitter 'lil cup-o-java my life would be MUCH less fun.

So if "science" were to shift its general stance that coffee is "good" to a position that it will leave me senile and crapping my own britches in a few years...well, I'd just have to leave clear instructions for my loved ones to put me out on an ice flow to become part of the food chain again...I'd be well stocked with coffee of course...

Regarding dairy the folks we have worked with who remove it from theri diets and then re-introduce it report generally not feeling as good with it as opposed to without it. Cream and butter tend to be FAR less offensive than say cheese and milk. Possibly do to less protein.

Off to drink more coffee
Robb

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