CrossFit Discussion Board  

Go Back   CrossFit Discussion Board > CrossFit Forum > Fitness
CrossFit Home Forum Site Rules CrossFit FAQ Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Fitness Theory and Practice. CrossFit's rationale & foundations. Who is fit? What is fitness?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 08-29-2004, 07:20 PM   #1
Dan John
Departed Dan John is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Jan 1970
 
Posts: 365
Robb Wolf called this morning. We had a nice talk and we decided to start keeping our thoughts here on the forum. I still don't have a grasp of what is going on in my new and improved training ideas, but right after talking with Robb, Mike and I reviewed the videos from yesterday's Highland Games.

About halfway through, I noticed that I was actually figuring out how to improve by improving my technique. This probably won't make sense to most, but when you throw, you generally try to improve by "upping" your bench or snatch or squat or whatever.

With this new emphasis on doing crossfit, I found myself trying to improve simply and only by focusing on doing it right. Most of you reading this would think "of course," but at the elite level...I'm including myself in this for once because any attempts at humility will ruin the point (okay...almost elite)...you are constantly ignoring technical work because it is "there." Really, you get more "bang from the buck" by lifting better maxs...or so I always thought and so does the majority of throw types.

I found myself really watching the videos and realizing that I need to work "this" and "that" in the tech itself...the crossfit training would take care of the other side of the issue.

It might be too vague for me to explain so far...
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2004, 05:12 AM   #2
Barry Cooper
Member Barry Cooper is offline
 
Barry Cooper's Avatar
 
Profile:
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Louisville  KY
Posts: 2,188
Dan,

That makes perfect sense. We got a guy here in Kentucky, Jim Birchfield, who throws the 56 36 ft., the 28 in the 70's, hammer over 100', Stone consistently over 40' etc. who does NO weightlifting in-season, from what he tells me.

Craig Smith, who's a pro out of Columbus, Ohio, told me essentially the same thing. The more I talk to these guys, the basic plan seems to be to do nothing but throw in-season, and work on their max lifts in the winter.

For me, I guarantee my time spent in the gym does little to no good. My problem is not strength. My problem is I haven't done enough spins.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2004, 10:11 AM   #3
Dan John
Departed Dan John is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Jan 1970
 
Posts: 365
But that isn't what I mean. Obviously, since I am not sure what I am talking about either...I understand the confusion.

I'm thinking that by letting my self expand my GPP (crossfit stuff), I am no longer thinking "bigger bench!" every time I throw bad. Now, I trust my training (GPP increases through crossfit) and I'm staring at my specific training as mastering the technique...at low levels.

Actually, I met Craig at Shamrock Games and Jim and I have talked on the House of Hurt many times. Very good people=listen to them...ignore my ramblings....

What interested me is that I trusted a technical fix, rather than going nuts and jumping off the roof for plyometric training...
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2004, 12:32 PM   #4
Larry Lindenman
Affiliate Larry Lindenman is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Chicago  Illinois
Posts: 2,769
This is the third thread in the last couple of weeks with the same underlying theme: Do athletes have to engage in a sport specific program or is a GPP program enough for conditioning for all sports. Theoretically the GPP program would take care of developing strength, power, anaerobic, aerobic, flexibility, control, toughness, etc. This would leave the athlete with only SPP or sport specific training, in addition to his GPP training. A sport specific training program would ignore certain aspects of fitness (by definition) and would thereby induce weaknesses within the athlete. With GPP taken care of, with a program like Crossfit, the sport specific training could be highly technique intensive because all other areas of conditioning have been addressed with the GPP program. Simple concept with profound implications! Can a one-size-fits-all program develop the “ultimate” athlete and then let specific skill training take over for the athlete’s sport. It would make sense that an athlete who reaches his maximal genetic potential for absolute strength, strength to weight ratio, anaerobic threshold, aerobic power, and flexibility, would be able to adapt to the demands of any sport from marathon running to throwing a caber. The only issue would be his skill level in the chosen sport. All sports rely on all aspects of fitness to one degree or another so a weakness in one area, imposed by a sport specific program (or what a trainer determines is sport specific), would weaken total sports performance.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2004, 02:00 PM   #5
Brian Hand
Departed Brian Hand is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Jan 1970
 
Posts: 633
Dan, if I read you right, this doesn't say anything about conditioning, except that for throwing, conditioning can't take the place of techinique, or maybe, conditioning can't distract you from skill. In other words, if you are thinking "bigger bench!" or "chelsea plus 4!" while you're throwing, you're not paying enough attention to technique; you have to trust your conditioning, forget about it, and throw right.

I am probably reaching here, I don't mean to put words in your mouth, but could this have to do with the Specificity principle? To bring back the boxing example, even though bench presses look something like punching, they don't have much to do with punching; slamming a door has more to do with punching. If you are thinking about bench pressing when you are punching, you are not going to get your weight into it - benching is not punching. This doesn't necessarily mean benching is no good for boxers, but you can't be thinking about benching in the ring.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2004, 08:11 PM   #6
Robert Wolf
Member Robert Wolf is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Chico  CA
Posts: 2,669
When I called Dan I wanted to thank him for some of his more recent posts. Perhaps this is overly gushing but I think what Dan has posited is nothing short of amazing. Coach and Lauren have tentatively put these ideas "out there" before but with some trepidation. Big claims with not much proof. Unfortunately, I think what Dan was trying to get across was largely missed.

I'm not sure if y'all caught Coach's piece in which he talked about the bracketing which has occurred. Dan John, to paraphrase Coach, competes in activities which require less than a second to execute. Mark Twight's efforts last from hours to days. Both seem to be gravitating towards this Central Dogma: CrossFit+Sport=success.

In The Time Course of Training Adaptations by Seiler the Third Wave adaptations involve efficiency. We certainly do want to be efficient in our sport. We definitely do not want to be efficient in training. We want stimulus, adaptation and progress.

IMO a program like CrossFit will produce a high degree of: strength, speed, balance etc. Add to that some sport specific training from gymnastics, O-lifting, distance running or whatever your thing is and you will gain in those specific areas. I think what one needs to work on is technique and efficiency. I also think that the more specific the sport, the less generalized the demands, the more it might detract from GPP. I need to think about that some more.


I have known for some time that this approach is very potent, very effective. What I am discovering is that it is more so than I could have imagined.
Robb
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2004, 05:03 AM   #7
Donald Woodson
Departed Donald Woodson is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Jan 1970
 
Posts: 455
OK, I keep seeing the GPP acronym. I did a search and cannot find it all spread out for me, so I gotta ask. What does GPP stand for?
I might add, I am learning so much from you all. I have never felt better in my life. I feel like I've discovered the fountain of youth.
***************Thanks!!!:happy:
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2004, 05:44 AM   #8
Barry Cooper
Member Barry Cooper is offline
 
Barry Cooper's Avatar
 
Profile:
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Louisville  KY
Posts: 2,188
Donald,

General Physical Preparation.

Dan,

I thought of a metaphor for what I think you're saying. In Snooker, as I understand it (it's been 20 years since I played it, so please forgive me if I'm misremembering), you hit a ball that hits another ball that hits a ball that will hopefully go in the hole. Obviously, this is not as easy as what you do in Pool, where you hit the cue ball, which hits another ball that hopefully goes in.

What you've been doing is hitting a cue ball (training direction) into another ball (weight training) to hopefully hit the final ball into the hole (actual throws).

What you're doing now is going directly from the cue ball to the ball that will go in the hole. You've shortened and simplified the process. You don't have to go through weightlifting to get to the goal of better throws.

Perhaps that could be a metaphor of the intention of CrossFit, which is to remove the middle ball, so you can go directly to your chosen activity. As in pool, you can also choose your shot, and it may well be that some are better than others.

I feel compelled to add there are a number of puns in here I am intentionally avoiding, so as to not be distracting.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2004, 06:03 AM   #9
Brian Hand
Departed Brian Hand is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Jan 1970
 
Posts: 633
Donald, GPP="general physical preparedness" The term has been around for a long time and has been in a lot of articles etc. this past couple years. One of the proponents has been Westside Barbell, who discovered one day they weren't able to keep up their training volume as powerlifters because they were out of shape. They added GPP to their schedules to get in shape, increase work capacity, improve recuperation, etc.

Robb, regarding efficiency, I definitely see your point that in training we *don't* want to be efficient, that is, we don't want to save ourselves work in completing tasks. However in another sense I think efficiency is Crossfit's main strength - it delivers a lot of results for a small time investment. Rather than beating your feet for 30 miles a week, you can build the endurance you need for your sport with 10 - 20 - 30 minute WODs. When you want GPP, efficiency is key; you might have time to build SPP (Specific) with a time consuming method, but you can't build all facets of GPP at the same time with separate, time-inefficient programs - few people have that kind of time and even fewer can recover from all that.

I think you are right that the more specific the demands of the sport, the less likely it is that GPP will meet those demands, and the more SPP will cut into GPP. (If that is indeed what you are saying.) To what degree, and if that can be worked around - very interesting questions.

  Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2004, 08:10 AM   #10
Barry Cooper
Member Barry Cooper is offline
 
Barry Cooper's Avatar
 
Profile:
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Louisville  KY
Posts: 2,188
The Japanese have a phrase "On ko chi shin", which, as I understand it, means "to study something old, and find something new."

In my case, I've had an AHA moment, that if you're not doing the WOD as written 5-6x a week, you're not doing CrossFit properly. That is the baseline, and if you want to increase your Bench, you do that on top of the base of physical resilience that CrossFit builds. There's no reason for limit strength athletes to lose limit strength; they just need to address that as their "sport" and work on it. Likewise for throwing. The bottom line is consistent exercise in the WOD builds the resilience to do the extra work.

I would bet the WOD plus supplemental SPP would take you 90% of where you could go if you solely specialized, depending, of course, on the sport.

Another growth moment was the decision to post all my results, no matter how sucky they are. One thing I think that slowed me down was a realization that, at first, it would be hard to slam 3 days in a row. Since I posted every result, I think that created an incentive to skip workouts I knew wouldn't go that well.
  Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
thinking of doing this fitness course Seral Mehmet Community 0 07-21-2006 07:03 AM
Thinking about trying cf...not sure on format Jon McClure Starting 3 05-17-2006 09:39 PM
Thinking about going to a CF facility Orlando Alonso Community 17 02-24-2006 02:49 PM
Thinking CrossFit Barry Cooper Community 39 01-11-2005 05:17 PM
Robb's Bodyweight/Strength Ratio Idea Tom Schneitter Fitness 13 10-14-2004 06:03 PM


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:44 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
CrossFit is a registered trademark of CrossFit Inc.