CrossFit Discussion Board  

Go Back   CrossFit Discussion Board > In Sickness and In Health > Health and Medical Issues
CrossFit Home Forum Site Rules CrossFit FAQ Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Health and Medical Issues For other than injuries

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 03-25-2008, 12:09 AM   #41
Derek Maffett
Member Derek Maffett is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Castle Rock  WA
Posts: 3,544
Re: Children's vaccinations

Thanks, Scott. Very informative material - I'm going to have my reading cut out for me for a while.
 
Old 03-25-2008, 05:08 AM   #42
Robert Pierce
Member Robert Pierce is offline
 
Robert Pierce's Avatar
 
Profile:
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Fulton  Missouri
Posts: 1,183
Re: Children's vaccinations

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Mahn View Post
One can access the US government's own Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System database to see for themselves, but keep in mind, it's estimated that only 1-10% of all cases are reported
I am highly skeptical of this figure, and I would like to see references. Intuitively, I would expect that serious adverse events, if anything, would be overreported, given our tendency to ascribe any adverse event, related or not, to a recent occurrence such as a vaccination...basically, recall bias.

Derek and others, please also be sure to read (wfs)http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/...ct/348/18/1737 (pneumococcus)
http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/287/5/606 (varicella)
http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/312/7024/160 (HIB)
http://www.immunize.org/catg.d/4038myth.htm
__________________
My medical posts are not intended to be medical advice or treatment. Consult your physician for that information.
 
Old 03-25-2008, 05:41 AM   #43
Scott Mahn
Member Scott Mahn is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Maplewood  NJ
Posts: 245
Re: Children's vaccinations

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Pierce View Post
I am highly skeptical of this figure, and I would like to see references. Intuitively, I would expect that serious adverse events, if anything, would be overreported, given our tendency to ascribe any adverse event, related or not, to a recent occurrence such as a vaccination...basically, recall bias.
I understand, but then, how many patients even know of the VAERS existence?

How many people return stale products to the grocery store, or send broken toys back to the manufacturer for warranty repair, or send in rebate forms to get money back? And in the case of doctors, how many care about the system, or fear perhaps they did something wrong, like gave a vaccine under contraindicated circumstances and would rather keep it to themselves?

Anyway, FWIW, here's one mention of the figure:

(WFS) http://www.nvic.org/Issues/VAERS.htm

In 1986, Congress passed the National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act (PL-99-660) that among other things required healthcare providers to report vaccine reactions to a centralized reporting system. As a result the Vaccine Adverse Events Reporting System (VAERS) to which parents, physicians and vaccine manufacturers could report adverse events was created. NVIC has assisted many parents in reporting adverse events following vaccination as many doctors refuse to make a report. It is estimated that only 1-10% of all doctors report a severe health problem which occurs after a drug or vaccine is given to a patient.



From pubmed:

The Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) is administered by the Food and Drug Administration and CDC and is a key component of postlicensure vaccine safety surveillance. Its primary function is to detect early warning signals and generate hypotheses about possible new vaccine adverse events or changes in frequency of known ones. VAERS is a passive surveillance system that relies on physicians and others to voluntarily submit reports of illness after vaccination. Manufacturers are required to report all adverse events of which they become aware. There are a number of well-described limitations of such reporting systems. These include, for example, variability in report quality, biased reporting, underreporting and the inability to determine whether a vaccine caused the adverse event in any individual report. Strengths of VAERS are that it is national in scope and timely. The information in VAERS reports is not necessarily complete nor is it verified systematically. Reports are classified as serious or nonserious based on regulatory criteria. Reports are coded by VAERS in a uniform way with a limited number of terms using a terminology called COSTART. Coding is useful for search purposes but is necessarily imprecise. VAERS is useful in detecting adverse events related to vaccines and most recently was used for enhanced reporting of adverse events in the national smallpox immunization campaign. VAERS data have always been publicly available. However, it is essential for users of VAERS data to be fully aware of the strengths and weaknesses of the system. VAERS data contain strong biases. Incidence rates and relative risks of specific adverse events cannot be calculated. Statistical significance tests and confidence intervals should be used with great caution and not routinely. Signals detected in VAERS should be subjected to further clinical and descriptive epidemiologic analysis. Confirmation in a controlled study is usually required. An understanding of the system's defined objectives and inherent drawbacks is vital to the effective use of VAERS data in vaccine safety investigations.

Last edited by Scott Mahn : 03-25-2008 at 06:05 AM.
 
Old 03-25-2008, 07:01 AM   #44
Matt DeMinico
Affiliate Matt DeMinico is offline
 
Matt DeMinico's Avatar
 
Profile:
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Sterling Heights  MI
Posts: 1,939
Re: Children's vaccinations

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ger Lavin View Post
Matt can you point me to some of this evidence, preferably from a reliable source for example a peer reviewed journal. As a father of a 5 month old girl I would be very interested in reading it.
Here's one, in letter format with a lot of references (I've linked the references page first, just go back to page 1 to read the article)
http://www.townsendletter.com/Nov200...lnotes1107.htm

Here's another quote of a doctor.

Dr. W.B. Clarke's important observation that cancer was not found in unvaccinated individuals demands an explanation and one now appears forthcoming. All vaccines given over a short period of time to an immature immune system deplete the thymus gland (the primary gland involved in immune reactions) of irreplaceable immature immune cells. Each of these cells could have multiplied and developed into an army of valuable cells to combat infection and growth of abnormal cells. When these immune cells have been used up, permanent immunity may not appear. The Arthur Research Foundation in Tucson, Arizona estimates that up to 60 % of our immune system may be exhausted by multiple mass vaccines (36 are now required for children). Only 10 % of immune cells are permanently lost when a child is permitted to develop natural immunity from disease.
 
Old 03-25-2008, 07:10 AM   #45
Matt DeMinico
Affiliate Matt DeMinico is offline
 
Matt DeMinico's Avatar
 
Profile:
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Sterling Heights  MI
Posts: 1,939
Re: Children's vaccinations

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emily Mattes View Post
Regarding the "miracle" AIDS vaccine--Matt, that vaccine was still very much in the testing stages. It was not given out for widespread use. It is disingenuous for you to make the implication that the failure of a vaccine in testing means that all vaccines out on the market are dangerous, or that the problems in creating a vaccine for a very difficult virus like HIV means that all vaccines are bogus.
Um, no, it makes exactly my point that vaccines can cause more harm than good. My other quotes (about Polio and Smallpox) demonstrated that same point, that when immunization was invented and became mandatory (when these diseases were already on the decline), all of a sudden they had a very high infection rate for a period of time, at which time they began to decline again (likely due to the SAME factor that was making them decline BEFORE the vaccine was invented).
 
Old 03-25-2008, 07:23 AM   #46
Jared Buffie
Member Jared Buffie is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Winnipeg  MB
Posts: 106
Re: Children's vaccinations

For anyone that still says that vaccines are responsible for eliminating deaths from communicable diseases:

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y62...-1900-1965.gif

Notice that Typhoid and Scarlet Fever disappeared at the same time as Pertussis, measles, etc... despite the fact that there was never vaccines developed for them.

As for polio:

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y62...poliorates.jpg

The tendency is to look at what happened on the right side of the graph after the vaccines were introduced while ignoring the left, pre-vaccine side. It's obvious Polio was on the way out before mass vaccination happened.

As for the study that absolved vaccines from causing Autism, it was performed by the IOM, which is funded by the CDC, which recommends vaccines for all. It's like Ford funding a safety report for the F150 and claiming objectivity.

For anyone that still denies the link between Autism and vaccines, the US Federal Court disagrees with you. Wake up and see the light or hide your head under the sand, it's up to you.
 
Old 03-25-2008, 07:30 AM   #47
Brandon Oto
Member Brandon Oto is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Santa Cruz  CA
Posts: 3,001
Re: Children's vaccinations

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt DeMinico View Post
Um, no, it makes exactly my point that vaccines can cause more harm than good.
It makes the point that vaccines IN TESTING can do more harm than good, which one imagines is exactly the thing you want to determine by testing. You will observe that it failed the tests and was therefore not stuck into your kids.
 
Old 03-25-2008, 07:31 AM   #48
Matt DeMinico
Affiliate Matt DeMinico is offline
 
Matt DeMinico's Avatar
 
Profile:
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Sterling Heights  MI
Posts: 1,939
Re: Children's vaccinations

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Wood View Post
As long as we're working off samples of size one . . . I have a seventeen-year-old daughter. Full vaccination series, including Gardasil (her choice). (Thank you, Derek, for your characterization of her . . . I'll extend your best wishes. (Somehow, I don't think she'll appreciate them, though.))

She's fine, by the way . . . no negative reactions at all.
David, the problem is, they're trying to make this vaccine *mandatory* for all girls over a certain age to go to school. THAT is a problem. They're basically saying "well we think you're going to be a little slut that screws a bunch of guys, so you have to get this vaccine because we say so". And yes, I know, it is in theory possible to NOT be a "little slut" (or a "little man whore") and still get it if the only person you're ever with happens to have the virus.
 
Old 03-25-2008, 07:38 AM   #49
Matt DeMinico
Affiliate Matt DeMinico is offline
 
Matt DeMinico's Avatar
 
Profile:
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Sterling Heights  MI
Posts: 1,939
Re: Children's vaccinations

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emily Mattes View Post
I'm kind of repeating myself at this point, but I have to say, you don't seem to understand that the vaccines we have children take are for the diseases for which there is still a need. Polio, meningitis, TB, these are not things that simple hygiene is going to prevent. As for avoiding infected people--well, that only works if you know they're infected, and the vast majority of infections occur during that incubation period when the carrier is asymptomatic and not even the carrier knows they're infected. The only way you can prevent that is creating your own little screened community and preventing anyone from exiting or leaving.
Are there cases of children (or adults) getting these diseases even after they've been vaccinated? Absolutely, every single one of them. As a matter of fact, the ONLY cases of Polio in some areas are among people who have been vaccinated.

I'd be willing to bet the effectiveness of these vaccines is GREATLY overstated, and if a double blind study was ever done on a large enough population over a long enough period of time, we'd find little or no benefit (and I'd submit, potentially harm) from the vaccines vs a placebo.
 
Old 03-25-2008, 07:49 AM   #50
Matt DeMinico
Affiliate Matt DeMinico is offline
 
Matt DeMinico's Avatar
 
Profile:
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Sterling Heights  MI
Posts: 1,939
Re: Children's vaccinations

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandon Oto View Post
It makes the point that vaccines IN TESTING can do more harm than good, which one imagines is exactly the thing you want to determine by testing. You will observe that it failed the tests and was therefore not stuck into your kids.
Do you honestly believe that vaccines go through complete testing before they're released to the public, and if they find a problem in those trials, that they don't release the vaccine?

In 1999, the rotavirus vaccine was recommended by the Center for Disease Control for all infants. When this vaccine program was instituted several infants died and many had life endangering bowel obstructions. Prelicensure trials of the rotavirus vaccine had demonstrated an increased incidence of intussusception 30 times greater than normal but the vaccine was released anyway without special warnings to practitioners to be on the lookout for bowel problems.


Oh, and to quote one of Scott's links (which supports exactly what I've been asserting):
Table IV--reveals that in England and Wales there was a continuing decline in the annual death rate from smallpox, with a reduction in mortality of roughly 300 per million to virtually 0, taking place in the 60 year period following the middle of the last century. This table further illustrates that the progressive rate of decline was severely disrupted--with a roughly 275 percent increase in mortality from the disease--occurring immediately after smallpox vaccination laws were enforced.
http://www.whale.to/vaccines/decline1.html

Last edited by Matt DeMinico : 03-25-2008 at 07:53 AM.
 
Closed Thread


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Children's CF Training Paul Zagaria Starting 10 06-29-2007 08:00 AM


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:44 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
CrossFit is a registered trademark of CrossFit Inc.