Mike Caviston

[John McBrien]

I don't believe there is a perfect program. CrossFit, SEALFit, Military Athlete, the Physical Training Guide, etc. are all means for accomplishing a specific end. In the context of this conversation, the end is successful completion of BUD/S or another Selection pipeline. Different athletes may find a specific program is better suited to their specific and relative needs. Or, they may find a program requires supplemental work, or "selection specific training," as Andy Stumpf states.

In my case, I have specific needs to address deficiencies in my overall GPP that is not adequately enhanced by the CrossFit Main Site WOD alone. I, personally, use CrossFit as my foundation and supplement with CrossFit Endurance and other more specific work to address personal deficiencies in certain general physical skills. It's been the best approach for me and for my athletes. However, that isn't to say I haven't looked at Military Athlete, SEALFit, or the Physical Training Guide written by Mr. Caviston. They all have valuable information.

Ultimately, it's up to an individual to determine what program is best suited to that individual's particular needs. Up to this point, I have found CrossFit, as a foundation, to be the "best," or most appropriate, program for me and my athletes, including my athletes that are preparing for selection pipelines.

[Nathan Kulas]

Some things to keep in mind during the general discourse of this thread:

Most SF schools, BUD/S included are not just a "hey, I want to go to school!" type deal.

There is a big process for this. To narrow it down for you:

1) Schools have a maximum capacity, which means if you apply for the school, you may get in; you may get on a waiting list; you may not get in at all (right then).

2) Depending on the school, only certain units have access to submit people to them (ranger school can be obtained in your enlistment contract, but he pre-requisites: airborne school, etc.); other schools require a specific selection process.

3) Due to (1) and (2), only a limited amount of people can be submitted for a school - and a unit will not submit people who are e.g. failing PT/PFT test, etc. They are generally scoring max or high scores on PT/PFT tests - 20 dead hang pull-ups, 75 push-ups in 2 minutes, 80 sit-ups, 13:00 2 mile run or 18:00 3 mile run, etc. etc. Rounded military athletes. They have shown in other schools that they are capable of exceeding standards.

These schools are not for the general public that have moderate (at best) physical capabilities. People going to BUD/S have been selected because of their achievements. With that in mind, they don't particularly need GPP conditioning.

That said, there are a lot of specific requirements for each school - MOST SF schools have a requirement that includes an endurance event.

So given that 1) candidates for these schools have a sufficient GPP and 2) there are specific requirements for the school, this means that there is likely a better program than the CrossFit mainpage WOD for developing successful candidates.

Does this mean CrossFit should not be used? No - but I for one would CERTAINLY suggest additional training, specifically in endurance events before attempting one of these schools.

I imagine the people who know the requirements best are best qualified for making suggestions on how the pass the course. I'm not going to dig up a quote - but someone said something about "getting people through the course who aren't qualified, by training them specifically... yatta yatta". The point of the above is that most people attending the school are qualified - so the goal at this point is for them to meet the school requirements - which are based around the job requirements. So why not train specifically for the requirements?

Makes sense to me.

[J. Thomas Boss]

Originally Posted by Nathan Kulas

So why not train specifically for the requirements?

Good point, Nathan. In a recent conversation about this very topic, a friend of mine said something along the lines of CF is to prepare a person for the "unknown and unknowable." However, the distance of a marathon, swim meet, and military schools are known and knowable, so GPP conditioning might not be the ideal primary method of training for these events.

There are numerous threads on this discussion board about "Using only mainsite WODs to (insert specific sport here)" and this doesn't make sense to me. Believe me, I completely understand the value of crosstraining to prevent injuries, increase capacities in various energy pathways, and keep things enjoyable and interesting, but I don't understand what people are trying to prove, and who they're trying to prove it to, when deciding to use GPP workouts to "train" for a specific event.

[Nathan Kulas]

I agree, there is certainly no harm in using CrossFit to round out your fitness goals - its what I'm doing here - and through my massive studies into physiology, exercise science, etc. I came to conclusion that CrossFit is best equipped for doing this and along the lines (though with branching into more specialities) of what I would have suggested for training principles. But as you have stated, that doesn't make it the best primary method of training if you have a specific goal in mind.

[Robert D Taylor Jr]

Originally Posted by Nathan Kulas

Some things to keep in mind during the general discourse of this thread:

Most SF schools, BUD/S included are not just a "hey, I want to go to school!" type deal.

There is a big process for this. To narrow it down for you:

1) Schools have a maximum capacity, which means if you apply for the school, you may get in; you may get on a waiting list; you may not get in at all (right then).

2) Depending on the school, only certain units have access to submit people to them (ranger school can be obtained in your enlistment contract, but he pre-requisites: airborne school, etc.); other schools require a specific selection process.

3) Due to (1) and (2), only a limited amount of people can be submitted for a school - and a unit will not submit people who are e.g. failing PT/PFT test, etc. They are generally scoring max or high scores on PT/PFT tests - 20 dead hang pull-ups, 75 push-ups in 2 minutes, 80 sit-ups, 13:00 2 mile run or 18:00 3 mile run, etc. etc. Rounded military athletes. They have shown in other schools that they are capable of exceeding standards.

These schools are not for the general public that have moderate (at best) physical capabilities. People going to BUD/S have been selected because of their achievements. With that in mind, they don't particularly need GPP conditioning.

That said, there are a lot of specific requirements for each school - MOST SF schools have a requirement that includes an endurance event.

So given that 1) candidates for these schools have a sufficient GPP and 2) there are specific requirements for the school, this means that there is likely a better program than the CrossFit mainpage WOD for developing successful candidates.

Does this mean CrossFit should not be used? No - but I for one would CERTAINLY suggest additional training, specifically in endurance events before attempting one of these schools.

I imagine the people who know the requirements best are best qualified for making suggestions on how the pass the course. I'm not going to dig up a quote - but someone said something about "getting people through the course who aren't qualified, by training them specifically... yatta yatta". The point of the above is that most people attending the school are qualified - so the goal at this point is for them to meet the school requirements - which are based around the job requirements. So why not train specifically for the requirements?

Makes sense to me.

This is inaccurate. The PST is as close to a GPP test that the military has. The former operators carrying this message are telling you GPP is vital. There is no wait list for BUD/S, you submit your package andthe Navy either accepts it and cuts you orders oir not. Navy boot camp is the only prereq for NSW training, and it can be hardly be accused of being good prep for BUD/S.

The job requirements physically, are vastly different than the training, but the core skills of training don't go away either. You need...GPP, anyway you cut it.

The test scores you list are USMC scores, irrelevant to the Navy, unless you're an FMF Corpsman.

You're over your head here, quit now.

[Alex Europa]

Originally Posted by Nathan Kulas

They are generally scoring max or high scores on PT/PFT tests - 20 dead hang pull-ups, 75 push-ups in 2 minutes, 80 sit-ups, 13:00 2 mile run or 18:00 3 mile run, etc. etc. Rounded military athletes. They have shown in other schools that they are capable of exceeding standards.

Actually, those scores only indicate specialty in those particular exercises, for those particular time periods and have ZERO indication of a person's GPP. I've taken guys that can easily max out the Navy PT test and run them into the ground with an "easy" CrossFit WOD. Generally, it's because they are way outside of their comfort zone...something that will happen routinely once they get to Coronado.

Originally Posted by Nathan Kulas

These schools are not for the general public that have moderate (at best) physical capabilities. People going to BUD/S have been selected because of their achievements. With that in mind, they don't particularly need GPP conditioning.

That is completely opposite from my experience of Sailors prepping to go to BUD/S; the majority are woefully under-prepared in nearly every aspect of their fitness. As Joey touched on earlier, generally they specialize in one area (i.e., running or swimming), and as a result are punished once they arrive at BUD/S.

Many candidates go to BUD/S with only slightly better than the bare minimum scores required (12:30 swim, 42 PU, 50 SU, and an 11:30 run), and some of them even make it through to become SEALS. While people with perfect scores don't always make it through. Obviously, there are ALOT of factors at play here, and it is actually quite unrelated, but oh well.

Originally Posted by Nathan Kulas

... so the goal at this point is for them to meet the school requirements - which are based around the job requirements. So why not train specifically for the requirements?

Because many operators will tell you that SPP cannot prepare you for being out on a mission; Joey (who is a BTDT) touched on this earlier. And (as it relates to training) there are many evolutions that occur at BUD/S that simply cannot be trained for, and that's when the specialists get into trouble while those people with a higher level of GPP are generally better prepared to handle what is being asked of their body (although, again...many other factors - such as mental toughness - come into play here as well).

- Alex

[Shane Skowron]

Check out this thread:
http://sealswcc.com/forum/topic.php?id=162
(some swearing otherwise wfs)

[Andrew H. Meador]

SF = Special Forces, i.e. the Army Special Forces regiment, a.k.a. the green berets. Let's not confuse it - we're talking about BUD/s, not SFAS. Maybe at best we're talking about all military special operations units' selections in general. So I'm not a BTDT as far as BUD/s is concerned. However, I can say this: Andy Stumpf's statement about recruiting people from construction and other hard jobs seems wise to me. Wrestlers are over-represented among the successful, in large part because of the never quit attitude. You can find random people off of the street with little to no physical training and they will pass these selection courses, simply because of their attitude and the minimal preparation that the military gives them in advance. SEALfit, CrossFit, gymnastics, oly-lifting gyms, wrestling teams, water polo teams, rowing teams, construction sites, hell - even dungeons and dragons tournaments all contain people with "the right stuff" (*Tom Wolfe). The particular training protocols are less important than the attitude, and attention should be given to preventing injury - the #1 reason why good dudes who otherwise would never quit don't make it through.

Having said this, why are we talking about how to get through the selections? Why aren't we talking about what makes a good operator? Durability, strength, endurance, and the right attitude are all necessary to be on a team.

[Christian Holm]

Posted by a SEAL on SealSwcc.com

You know, mike, I respect you. "Assault on Lake Casitus" is one of my favorite books and you obviously know a **** ton about rowing. You are the Yoda of sculling and for that you should be commended.

But that is where it stops.

Me: I'm a SEAL. I've worked at the center, I've done CF, I like it, I don't think it is the holy grail but GPP is what you need. Your basis on your statements is spurious at best.

You are a learned man. You are an academic. You study, you gather stats, you make recommendations. Roger that. YOU, my friend, are not a meat eater. You deal in quantitative elements where 2 + 2 = 4. That is not the case in 90% of our job.

I was around when they wanted to get rid of no-winter hell weeks. We said it is a disservice to the community. They did it anyway b/c it would "get more people thru BUD/S". It failed.

They have started a program at Bootcamp that specifically prepares men to go to BUD/S. The first class to go thru this program showed up last year and they were touted as "The Immortals" because of how they looked w/ their shirts off and the numbers they were producing during runs, swims, etc. Hellweek came around and guess who went running for the bell?

Mike what I am getting at is that CF teaches elements of being "hard". Hard is really w/o definition but when you witness it, you know it. Do not confuse it w/ being stupid, careless, or haphazard.

You say CF presents a distorted percentage of guys in the Teams doing the workouts? Mike, really, what is your basis for this? "Asking around" to a couple guys in the lounge on your breaks does not constitute that. The Teams is rife w/ avid CF'rs. Walk into any gym and during the high traffic hours and I would bet my paycheck there is someone doing one. I know I always see someone doing them where I work out. Again, I do some of the workouts. I think it is flawed in alot of ways but it is 80% there. If you exercise some caution in your abilities and learning the moves, it will do amazing things for you.

Mike, you are a rower. A gut wrenching sport, no doubt where pain and suffering is synonymous. But you don't lift heavy weight, you don't do 150 sit ups on hot asphalt till a huge wound shows on your back You don't do rope climbs till you have burns on both your ankles b/c you burnt down trying to get your boat crew to win. You don't do your class number in pullups for a workout b/c damnit that is just what is done. Doing sprints up a berm in wet cammies covered in sand isn't easy no matter what you do. You don't "get some". You're one of "them" in the white lab coat and a clipboard.

Gentlemen on this board: If you want to succeed at bud/s, you have to be "hard". You know you will make it or not before you go. If you are willing to die to succeed, then you will. If you would rather leave coronado in a body bag than fail, then you will do well.

My recommendation as a student and instructor: Do CF BUT EXERCISE JUDICIOUSNESS in your abilities to do the workouts. YOU DON"T NEED TO DO 50 MUSCLEUPS to graduate. SOme deadlifts, squats, and cleans.. .HELL YES. But Stew Smiths 12 weeks to BUD/S will treat you well. REST, REST REST when you need to...do not show up injured. You control you destiny so do some experimenting to what YOU respond to. A combo of CF and Stew Smiths book w/ adequate rest, recovery, and nutrition will make you a superstar. There is no cookie cutter answer. Each person is different. It is up to you to figure it out.

A guy in my boat crew was on the Decathlon team w/ Dan and Dave from 92 and 96 olympic fame (i'm dating myself, I know) He was world class. He was flawless on paper and exceptional on the track. Guess what happened to him on Tues during hellweek?

Mike, you and I know Castro knows EXACTLY what your job is. Just be honest. There are PLENTY of former and Current SEALs that are plugged into what is happening at CF.

For a third time, I'm not a Kool Aid drinker. I think CF has its flaws but it is a VERY GOOD program and when done w/ caution, patience, and honesty to one's abilities, some AMAZING results will happen. Throw in some running on soft sand, get busy on your swimming (intervals and distance) and you will thrive.

With respect,
John

[Andrew H. Meador]

I think that the operator who wrote that is missing the fact that Mike Caviston is a very, very good athlete. Not an operator, but a very good athlete nonetheless. Link is w/fs:

http://www.michigandaily.com/content...aks-world-mark