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Old 08-07-2013, 06:01 AM   #61
Dare Vodusek
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Re: Thoughts on Gary Taubes

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Originally Posted by Phil Washlow View Post

The bold part doesn't happen for most americans because they have such high levels of insulin in their blood at all times from their consistent high sugar (or other highly glycemic) diets. So when they would be getting into negative energy balance they get really hungry and tired and go ahead and eat more of the stuf that is keeping their fat cells full of unusable fat. In order for this to work a person's hormones need to be better regulated, a diet high in fat and low in carbohydrate will allow their body to be better at using fat as an energy source, at which time moderate amounts of low/moderate glycemic carbs can be reintroduced in the form of fruits and vegetables which are nutrient dense.
Well explained Phil, I'd just like to add one thing. ALL CARBS (no matter if its coca cola or white potato) causes this, all but SuperStarch. So with superstarch there is no insulin response and body's hormone system can function properly.
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Old 08-07-2013, 07:17 AM   #62
Sean Dunston
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Re: Thoughts on Gary Taubes

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Originally Posted by Dare Vodusek View Post
Well explained Phil, I'd just like to add one thing. ALL CARBS (no matter if its coca cola or white potato) causes this, all but SuperStarch. So with superstarch there is no insulin response and body's hormone system can function properly.
"Superstarch" is basically corn starch, correct?
You're saying that this corn-derived product does not give an insulin response?

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Old 08-07-2013, 07:28 AM   #63
Phil Washlow
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Re: Thoughts on Gary Taubes

A normal hormonal response to veggies isn't a bad thing, its the constant state of glucose spike followed by insulin spike that is related to the health issues. So I don't agree that superstarch is the only healthy source of carbohydrates. A healthy (fat adapted) person can functionally and safely eat more carbs than allowed in a ketogenic diet, especially if the sources are low in glycemic load. The advantages of keto are not really related to high athletic performance (across all domains, like crossfit), high athletic performance requires adequate carbohydrate intake, the issue is defining adequate, I say it's on the order of glucose used during exercise, which for an efficient person exercising under an hour or 2 of intense activity should be below 200g.

Superstarch is a complex product that is derived from corn, the reason for the lack of/very limited insulin response is the rate of absorption that is extremely slow due to the size of the molecules. Just like how waxy maize is a slow release carb, superstarch is like a very slow waxy maize.
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Old 08-07-2013, 07:36 AM   #64
Paulo Santos
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Re: Thoughts on Gary Taubes

Insulin spike is only an issue to the obese/unhealthy individuals. For most of us who are healthy and active, good carbs are a good thing. Keto diets are good for fat loss, but it isn't something I would want to do long term or if I was doing any cardio/CrossFit.
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Old 08-07-2013, 07:36 AM   #65
Todd R Bailey
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Re: Thoughts on Gary Taubes

Oh, man, I’m late to the party here. But I’ll throw in my two cents anyway.

I haven’t read Taubes books, but I’ve read his NYT article and his blog articles. I’ve also seen him speak in person twice: once at a presentation he gave to the Harvard Food Law Society and once at the 2012 Ancestral Health Symposium.

I’ll start by saying Taubes is not Paleo. Some Paleo advocates have adopted or agree with some of Taubes ideas and writings but not all of them and not all of his ideas. I think his examination of how we came to “fear” fat (especially saturated fat) and why saturated fat can, in fact, be healthy is great.

However, I don’t agree with him to the extent he argues (or people on his behalf argue) that anything more than low carb leads to an insulin spike which eventually causes insulin resistance which causes obesity.

Chronically elevated insulin levels of someone who is insulin resistant is a not good. However, that is not the same as a normal insulin spike following consumption of carbohydrates in a metabolically healthy person. There are no “bad” hormones, including insulin. It is all about context.

Furthermore, even if you are “scared” of spiking insulin, you can still consume a significant amount of carbohydrate without “spiking” insulin by simply consuming your carbs post-workout and taking advantage of post-exercise non insulin mediated glucose transport.

In my opinion, too many things have changed from our ancestral lifestyle and diet (whether you’re looking at 50, 150 or 150,000 years ago) to simply blame carbohydrates. People generally are more sedentary. Modern processed food is engineered to be super palatable and override normal brain/body satiety signals. There is increased consumption of pro-inflammatory omega 6 polyunsaturated fats. The shift from whole to processed foods has reduced nutrient density of the diet which may contribute to overeating. Yes, carbohydrates play an important role in the process. A low carb diet can be an important therapeutic tool to lose weight, reverse metabolic syndrome, etc. But don’t confuse a treatment with a cause. Just because low carb can reverse obesity for many, doesn’t mean high carb caused obesity in the first place.

Finally, chronic low carb dieting is not without potential harmful effects. There are potential issues with thyroid down regulation. And new evidence is suggesting that a low carb diet may negatively impact gut flora and intestinal permeability. See here:

http://humanfoodproject.com/sorry-lo...that-into-you/ (wfs)

Read Robb Wolf’s 3 part series on the benefits and limitations of Low Carb diets. There is a reason that he and other folks that deal with high level athletes don’t recommend low carb diets across the board. As Robb notes, even Peter Attia had to come up with “super starch” and “must supplement with carbs or he has no ‘low gear’ (glycolysis)”.

http://rob bwolf.com/2013/01/09/thoughts-carb-paleo-episode-3-hope/ (wfs)

In all, I think Taubes is a mixed bag. He definitely some good ideas and I’m optimistic about the future work of NuSci. But to the extent his insulin hypothesis of obesity is used to suggest that carbs are the sole or even primary cause of obesity or that everyone would be better off low carb, I don’t agree.

Last edited by Todd R Bailey : 08-07-2013 at 07:44 AM.
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Old 08-07-2013, 07:46 AM   #66
Phil Washlow
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Re: Thoughts on Gary Taubes

Todd, I agree with most everything you said. I definitely think that very low carb is more of a therapy tool than something permanent. My questions is what would you consider to be low carb? I believe that around 150-200g is sufficient for an athlete, and 50-100 for a sedentary person.
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Old 08-07-2013, 08:10 AM   #67
Todd R Bailey
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Re: Thoughts on Gary Taubes

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Originally Posted by Phil Washlow View Post
Todd, I agree with most everything you said. I definitely think that very low carb is more of a therapy tool than something permanent. My questions is what would you consider to be low carb? I believe that around 150-200g is sufficient for an athlete, and 50-100 for a sedentary person.
I think you have to distinguish between what is sufficient and what is optimal or even tolerable without harm. Can a hard charging athlete be successful on 150-200 g of carbs? Sure. Can he or she be even more successful with increased carbs (especially from whole food like potatoes, yams and bananas)? In many cases, yes.

The same with a sedentary person. For many people, 50-100 g of carbs is "sufficient". But that doesn't mean that 200-300 grams of carbs (or more) from unprocessed whole foods automatically leads to weight gain. Look at the dozens of folks over at Mark's Daily Apple who lost weight by substantially increasing the amount of potatoes they ate. (http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum...d67137-51.html) (WFS)
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Old 08-07-2013, 08:38 AM   #68
Dare Vodusek
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Re: Thoughts on Gary Taubes

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"Superstarch" is basically corn starch, correct?
You're saying that this corn-derived product does not give an insulin response?

Yes and Yes, check this video by Attia, its explained how it works: https://vimeo.com/51891286

Actually there is no natural product out there that is so slow releasing as superstarch, perhaps carbs in nuts come close to it. Definetly check that video by Attia.
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Old 08-07-2013, 09:11 AM   #69
Bill M. Hesse
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Re: Thoughts on Gary Taubes

I am at a loss. Enjoy your way of eating.
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Old 08-07-2013, 10:21 AM   #70
Todd Neal
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Re: Thoughts on Gary Taubes

Dare, I think you need to watch the video again yourself. SuperStarch causes an insulin response just like everything else we eat. The insulin response is very low, true, but it is there. The manufacturer even says so: http://www.generationucan.com/proof.html (wfs)

After having read all of this stuff, I'm wondering what our end goal is. Are we really trying to work something out here, and if so are we all on the same page as to what that is? I've watched and read a lot of Taubes and Attia's work lately and I want to try to clarify some things. I'm curious which points any or all of you disagree with:

1 - Highly processed carbs generally cause an elevated insulin response in our body.
2 - Insulin regulates fat storage and mobilization, higher levels causing the former, lower levels the latter.
3 - You get hungry when your body needs energy. If the energy in your fat cells, liver, or muscles is not available, you need to get your energy from ingestion (eating/drinking).
Thus, 4 - If you are eating highly processed carbs and elevating your insulin levels, your body is not using the energy stored in your fat cells, which is causing you to eat more because you're hungry and need energy, which means your caloric intake is exceeding your caloric output and you're gaining weight.

I think that if you agree with all of those statements then you are of the same mind as Taubes and Attia. There's a lot being thrown around here like Taubes is a paleo advocate and Attia hasn't done any research. These guys are both very intelligent and have done way more homework than all of us (unless you've been studying this subject through scientific journals for the past 5+ years).

I'd also like to point out that I've mentioned NOTHING about healthy eating or eating for athletes. If you don't think this diet is healthy or the right diet for a xfitter, please mention that in your post, but don't disagree with everything else because you don't think it's healthy.

Ok, thanks for listening.
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Last edited by Todd Neal : 08-07-2013 at 10:30 AM.
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