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Old 07-26-2013, 05:55 AM   #61
Jeff Enge
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Re: Cheap Paleo Bulking

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Originally Posted by Dare Vodusek View Post
Not carbs by itself, but the amount of carbs people eat is just too high. Carbs are fine, if eaten small amounts, its also almost impossible to have 0 carb diet.

why too much carbs arent healthy:
http://eatingacademy.com/how-low-car...-heart-disease

And for those that say "carbs are needed for performance":
http://eatingacademy.com/how-a-low-c...ic-performance

Again..this is not the place to debate this, lets not hijack the thread.
Fine, I'll grant you that too many carbs aren't healthy... but only in the same sense that too much of literally ANYTHING isn't healthy, and I don't see anybody here saying protein isn't healthy, or Vitamin C isn't healthy, or anything of the like.

And yes, this does seem like an appropriate place to discuss this, if the OP wants to know how to bulk on paleo, I'm sure they want to know the healthy way to do it.
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Old 07-26-2013, 06:08 AM   #62
Dare Vodusek
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Re: Cheap Paleo Bulking

Ok, sorry, lets continue this discussion then.

Since I am not an expert on carbs, how much of them do you recommend to OP, before they can affect healt? What is the role of them? Only to provide energy? If thats the case, perhaps UCAN product SuperStarch could be useful or similar?
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Old 07-26-2013, 06:27 AM   #63
Jeff Enge
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Re: Cheap Paleo Bulking

I'm not a nutritionist, and I don't eat paleo, so I don't know exact numbers and how to implement them on that particular diet.

I think it is proportions of proteins/carbs/fats compared to total intake that determines whether an amount of a macronutrient is healthy or not - it's not like you reach a saturation point and suddenly carbs become toxic or something - and I think for an athlete a mostly balanced proportion of carbs to fats is ideal for performance. So, figure out how much you need to eat to meet your body size goals, get your protein in, and split the rest between good carbs and fats, whatever "good" means in your particular diet view.
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Old 07-26-2013, 06:51 AM   #64
Paulo Santos
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Re: Cheap Paleo Bulking

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dare Vodusek View Post
Ok, sorry, lets continue this discussion then.

Since I am not an expert on carbs, how much of them do you recommend to OP, before they can affect healt? What is the role of them? Only to provide energy? If thats the case, perhaps UCAN product SuperStarch could be useful or similar?
How many carbs you need per day will depend on your training. The more training you do, the more carbs you should take in. The less training, the less carbs. I don't have a magic number, but if you are training hard, I'd say start with 1.5 x bodyweight for the total amount of carbs for that day. That has worked out very well for me.
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Old 07-26-2013, 07:05 AM   #65
Michael Dries
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Re: Cheap Paleo Bulking

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Originally Posted by Dare Vodusek View Post
Would you be so kind and share your experience with low carb diet and gaining muscle vs "normal" carb intake and gaining muscle?
Were you consuming the same amount of calories when LC than when swapping to carbs and basicly carbs were the only thing that changed in your diet and "that" did the trick for you? Or the thing that changed was that because of carbs you were able to lift a lot more which basicly did the trick? What was your program like?
I ran starting strength for about 9 months on a low carb diet, only taking in between 60-100 carbs a day. I got my body weight up to about 195 and my squat, dead, press numbers to 335, 405, 160. But my body fat ran up to about 20%. I was consuming upwards off 3500-4000 calories a day depending on hunger and training load.

Then I had shoulder surgery.

This year I ran a similar program to starting strength but rather than per workout jumps I did weekly. I was able to get up to 275 squat, 335 dead and 145 press, but this time at a body weight of 165 and about 15% body fat. This was consuming about 200-300 carbs per day.

I currently completed Wendler's 5/3/1 boring but big challenge. By the end I was doing 5 set of 10 squats with 185 at a 168# body weight. Not impressive to most but it was a huge PR for me. Calories were about 2700 on training days and 2000 on off days, consuming about 250g of carb per day.

I've personally found if I run a low carb diet (<100g/day) I have to dramatically up my calories to get through my workouts. However if I ate more carbs 200-300g/day I can keep my calories lower but perform the same amount of work.

But I think everyone is different and needs to determine for themselves what fat:carb ratio works best for them and their goals.
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Old 07-26-2013, 07:16 AM   #66
Michael Dries
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Re: Cheap Paleo Bulking

I also want to point out;

The OP originally asked for inexpensive means of bulking on a paleo (or close to paleo) diet.

Animal foods are expensive.
Fats can be expensive.
Fruit is expensive and perishable.
Carbs like rice and potatoes are cheap.

If the OP is training to bulk, i.e. running a well thought out strength (high intensity) and hypertrophy (high volume) program (IE NOT crossfit metcons). Then he'll probably see the best results with a diet richer in carbs than fats, and his wallet will probably feel a bit heavier buying potatoes and rice rather than more meat and nuts.

Example, tropical traditions has 640fl oz of coconut oil for $135 (plus shipping). Thats about 80k calories at 597 calories per dollar.

A 25lb bag of jasmine rice contains about 64k calories and costs about $18. That's 3500 calories per dollar.

Let's also remember that 6-9 months of bulking on a high carb diet isn't going to make the OP diabetic by any means if he's keeping his calories in check and not adding a ton of junk food on top of it (again keeping an eye on overall calories).
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Old 07-26-2013, 07:42 AM   #67
Todd R Bailey
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Re: Cheap Paleo Bulking

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Originally Posted by Dare Vodusek View Post
Ok, sorry, lets continue this discussion then.

Since I am not an expert on carbs, how much of them do you recommend to OP, before they can affect healt? What is the role of them? Only to provide energy? If thats the case, perhaps UCAN product SuperStarch could be useful or similar?
I know you are a Paleo guy, and Kevin (OP) has read Robb Wolf's book, so I'll just quote the Paleo Baby Jesus himself
http://rob bwolf.com/2013/01/09/thoughts-carb-paleo-episode-3-hope/ (wfs)

Quote:
Crossfit burns through glycogen like nothing else I can imagine. If you are going to do it, you need carbs, quite a few of them. If you are trying to be competitive Id get at least 1.5-2.5g/lb of BW most days. Obviously with the normal caveats of trying to get those carbs mainly in the PWO when/if possible. I know most folks know Peter Attia, and have likely followed his ketogenic training program. Peter is a good friend and about 15x smarter than I am. He is tinkering and experimenting, but even he has noticed he must supplement with carbs or he has no "low gear" (glycolysis). Tinker if you want to, but my gut sense is that we will not find a magical fuel source in LC unless your activity is ultra running, or similar very long but low intensity activities. If you do MMA, CrossFit, etc, I do not think LC will work. If you are a strength athlete, I think CLC is the bees knees.
I don't think Kevin told us what he is doing from a training perspective. But if it is CrossFit, then upping the carbs will probably help. If he is purely strength training, then a cyclic low carb approach (which sounds like it would still be an increase in carbs) that Paulo recommended sounds like the way to go.
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Old 07-26-2013, 08:51 AM   #68
Dare Vodusek
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Re: Cheap Paleo Bulking

Nice find Todd.
Sounds logical to me, but what my concerns are how my body reacts to carbs. I was a paleo from march then did a "renegade diet". Because I felt I am not going in the right direction and I blamed the lack of carbs for it. Then I added carbs to my diet, 100g of carbs, PWO, white rice or white potato. The rest stayed Paleo.

An my gut did not like it. My digestion was not good and I also experienced bloating. That was like minutes after my meal. I ate like 400-500g of white potato and had to lie on the coach for a few. Now I can eat 200g of meat and 200g of cheese, topped with 150g kefir + 50g kajmak and I almost dont feel it in my stomach. When I sacked carbs, everything went back to normal very fast.

Now I've changed to LCHF aka keto with only eating healthy meat, fish, eggs, diary products, very few veggies, nuts and fruit. I've found some interesting debate (on another forum) and this is what is suggested there, so im giving it a go.

I also read some "latest" studies that carbs cause body inflammation and are a root to many problems. Thou, I did not go very deep into it, so I dont know if thats because of "any" carbs or just if there are too much of them.

So if, even by a minimum, carbs really do cause inflammation, I dont want them. I am not a pro athlete that wants to "win" no matter what. My goal in life is longevity and a productive life. I would rather sacrifice my performance now, than to loose a few years of my life.

I am still new to whole nutrition thing and learning, so everything I know now might be untrue, but there are just so many different advices, guides and diets out there that its almost impossible to know whats best, erm..not best, most HEALTHY.
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Old 07-26-2013, 08:58 AM   #69
Jeff Enge
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Re: Cheap Paleo Bulking

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dare Vodusek View Post
Nice find Todd.
Sounds logical to me, but what my concerns are how my body reacts to carbs. I was a paleo from march then did a "renegade diet". Because I felt I am not going in the right direction and I blamed the lack of carbs for it. Then I added carbs to my diet, 100g of carbs, PWO, white rice or white potato. The rest stayed Paleo.

An my gut did not like it. My digestion was not good and I also experienced bloating. That was like minutes after my meal. I ate like 400-500g of white potato and had to lie on the coach for a few. Now I can eat 200g of meat and 200g of cheese, topped with 150g kefir + 50g kajmak and I almost dont feel it in my stomach. When I sacked carbs, everything went back to normal very fast.

Now I've changed to LCHF aka keto with only eating healthy meat, fish, eggs, diary products, very few veggies, nuts and fruit. I've found some interesting debate (on another forum) and this is what is suggested there, so im giving it a go.

I also read some "latest" studies that carbs cause body inflammation and are a root to many problems. Thou, I did not go very deep into it, so I dont know if thats because of "any" carbs or just if there are too much of them.

So if, even by a minimum, carbs really do cause inflammation, I dont want them. I am not a pro athlete that wants to "win" no matter what. My goal in life is longevity and a productive life. I would rather sacrifice my performance now, than to loose a few years of my life.

I am still new to whole nutrition thing and learning, so everything I know now might be untrue, but there are just so many different advices, guides and diets out there that its almost impossible to know whats best, erm..not best, most HEALTHY.
Well there's your problem. You went from low carb to carb overload - actually, probably food overload if that was a side dish to a meal, of course your body didn't like it. A pound of potatoes at one sitting?
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Old 07-26-2013, 09:12 AM   #70
Michael Dries
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Re: Cheap Paleo Bulking

Just to add more fuel to the fire, I have should issues (hence the surgery 2 years ago) and I find that when I tip my energy intake more towards carbs and away from fats (even coconut oil) I find my shoulder hurts less. Maybe less inflammation? Who knows. N=1
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