CrossFit Discussion Board  

Go Back   CrossFit Discussion Board > CrossFit Forum > Nutrition
CrossFit Home Forum Site Rules CrossFit FAQ Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Nutrition Diet, supplements, weightloss, health & longevity

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 04-21-2014, 05:48 PM   #71
Todd Neal
Member Todd Neal is offline
 
Todd Neal's Avatar
 
Profile:
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Long Beach  CA
Posts: 317
Re: Food for one day, how to improve?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke Sirakos View Post
What I have a problem with is the vilification of carbs and thinking that they cause you to magically gain fat or prevent it from being lost.
I almost hate to do this, but you did say a few posts ago, "eating carbs does inhibit fat oxidation."

Dare, I don't think we're really all that similar on a micro level. As Luke says, allergies and hormonal imbalances can cause wildly different responses to foods. However, I would agree that there is likely a diet that would suit most people.

Luke, you said that "It takes a deficit to lose weight and that means eating less or exercising more." I think that we've got to recognize that creating a deficit doesn't necessarily mean eating less or exercising more. Eating less can stunt metabolism, and exercising can make you hungry. It may work for some, but it's not the only solution. I think eating differently can also create a deficit.
__________________
"Know your engine first, then fuel it appropriately."
― Peter Attia
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-21-2014, 05:59 PM   #72
Luke Sirakos
Member Luke Sirakos is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Dallas  TX
Posts: 858
Re: Food for one day, how to improve?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd Neal View Post
I almost hate to do this, but you did say a few posts ago, "eating carbs does inhibit fat oxidation."

Dare, I don't think we're really all that similar on a micro level. As Luke says, allergies and hormonal imbalances can cause wildly different responses to foods. However, I would agree that there is likely a diet that would suit most people.

Luke, you said that "It takes a deficit to lose weight and that means eating less or exercising more." I think that we've got to recognize that creating a deficit doesn't necessarily mean eating less or exercising more. Eating less can stunt metabolism, and exercising can make you hungry. It may work for some, but it's not the only solution. I think eating differently can also create a deficit.


You really should read my entire post instead of just cherry picking the one statement that fits your narrative. Carb intake inhibits fat oxidation but an excess of 500 cals of carbs has the same effect of an excess of 500 cals of fat. All it means is when you eat carbs your body shifts to burn those carbs, if you substitute those calories for fat you still have to burn those calories or they are stored.

Riddle me this. Diet A is 500 cals from protein, and 2000 cals from fat. Diet B is 500 cals from protein, 500 cals from fat, 1000 cals from carbs. In both instances energy out is 2000 carbs, what happens?

In diet A all protein is burned along with 1500 cals from fat, 500 cals from fat are stored as fat. In diet B the protein and carbs are consumed and the 500 cals from fat is stored as fat. In diet B fat oxidation was halted to burn the protein and the carbs. In diet A fat oxidation was only halted for the protein. The end result in both is the exact same, 500 calories worth of fat being stored.
__________________
Deadlift: 475 | Back Squat: 405 | Front Squat: 320
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2014, 06:30 AM   #73
Phil Washlow
Member Phil Washlow is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Westchester  IL
Posts: 306
Re: Food for one day, how to improve?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke Sirakos View Post


You really should read my entire post instead of just cherry picking the one statement that fits your narrative. Carb intake inhibits fat oxidation but an excess of 500 cals of carbs has the same effect of an excess of 500 cals of fat. All it means is when you eat carbs your body shifts to burn those carbs, if you substitute those calories for fat you still have to burn those calories or they are stored.

Riddle me this. Diet A is 500 cals from protein, and 2000 cals from fat. Diet B is 500 cals from protein, 500 cals from fat, 1000 cals from carbs. In both instances energy out is 2000 carbs, what happens?

In diet A all protein is burned along with 1500 cals from fat, 500 cals from fat are stored as fat. In diet B the protein and carbs are consumed and the 500 cals from fat is stored as fat. In diet B fat oxidation was halted to burn the protein and the carbs. In diet A fat oxidation was only halted for the protein. The end result in both is the exact same, 500 calories worth of fat being stored.
Three main things are different.
One is that Resting Energy Expenditure and Total Daily Energy Expenditure have been shown to be higher in high fat low carb, that part might not be particularly important but it can be noticed. If you down a tablespoon of MCT oil you will feel a bit warm.

The second and more important part is the ability for a person to consume either of those scenarios. In diet A the persons blood sugar will remain fairly constant, along with their insulin, thus their hunger will be driven by actual hunger. In diet B the person's blood sugar will spike (this can be different depending on the source of the carbs), then insulin will spike and drive down the blood sugar, next the person feels hungry again because their blood sugar fell.

Finally (this is based on an assumption that the participants spent a good amount of time on their respective diets and their bodies have adjusted to them) in diet A if the person exercised to a deficit their stores of body fat would be readily available, low levels of insulin in the blood allows for better fat mobilization, and time spent burning mostly fat helps teach the body to be better at doing so, therefore the person wouldn't have the same hunger signals and over eat. In diet B the person would be in a deficit but have high amounts of insulin in their blood, limiting their ability to mobilize stored fat for usage, and they would also have limited ability to utilize the mobilized body fat for energy, causing the person to feel more hungry than they should. This is why you see endurance athletes (who have not converted to a high fat, carbs as needed diet) slamming sugary packets of gu and gatorade, they have a limited ability to access their stored body fat for energy.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2014, 06:42 AM   #74
Luke Sirakos
Member Luke Sirakos is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Dallas  TX
Posts: 858
Re: Food for one day, how to improve?

Lots of assumptions there that have not been shown in research. Again, research studies that control for food intake show that macro composition has little to no significant impact on weight loss. Good bro science though.
__________________
Deadlift: 475 | Back Squat: 405 | Front Squat: 320
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2014, 06:53 AM   #75
Dare Vodusek
Member Dare Vodusek is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Kidricevo  Slovania
Posts: 901
Re: Food for one day, how to improve?

Luke, are you saying there is no proof in so called "carb crashing" when one have a huge high GI carb meal and soon after he/she feels hunger again (due to quick insulin raise and fall) ?
__________________
Originally Posted by Rick Scarpulla
Toughness is a state of mind not a size.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2014, 07:22 AM   #76
Phil Washlow
Member Phil Washlow is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Westchester  IL
Posts: 306
Re: Food for one day, how to improve?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke Sirakos View Post
Lots of assumptions there that have not been shown in research. Again, research studies that control for food intake show that macro composition has little to no significant impact on weight loss. Good bro science though.
Impact of macro breakdown on energy expenditure. http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article....icleid=1199154 (wfs)

more detailed breakdown of the data.
http://eatingacademy.com/books-and-a...interpretation (wfs)

Here's an n=1 example of overfeeding high fat low carb vs low fat high carb.
http://www.paleodietbasics.net/sam-feltham/ (wfs)
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2014, 09:16 AM   #77
Luke Sirakos
Member Luke Sirakos is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Dallas  TX
Posts: 858
Re: Food for one day, how to improve?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil Washlow View Post
Impact of macro breakdown on energy expenditure. http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article....icleid=1199154 (wfs)

more detailed breakdown of the data.
http://eatingacademy.com/books-and-a...interpretation (wfs)

Here's an n=1 example of overfeeding high fat low carb vs low fat high carb.
http://www.paleodietbasics.net/sam-feltham/ (wfs)
That is definitely an interesting study, I really wish they had kept protein levels equal across the groups though. I have stated many times throughout this thread and in others that adequate protein intake is essential and I still stand by that. The fact that the low carb group had basically 30% more grams of protein (~50g) does make a big difference. Also, perhaps I overlooked it but I could not find tracking of body weight throughout the study which would have an impact on energy output as it has been shown that heavier individuals expend more energy.

Also, there are some studies I posted a couple pages back, which have a higher level of a controlled environment, that say macro composition does not have an impact.

(Both WFS)
Nutrient balance in humans: effects of diet composition.

Diet composition and energy balance in humans.


Again, you will not see me argue that MCT's don't have an impact that increases fat oxidation, what I will argue is that normal fat consumption does not increase fat oxidation (a majority of fat intake is not going to be MCT's). If you take two diets that have similar protein intake and change x calories from carbs to the same calories from fat the amount of fat storage will not change to any significant degree.
__________________
Deadlift: 475 | Back Squat: 405 | Front Squat: 320
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2014, 09:24 AM   #78
Luke Sirakos
Member Luke Sirakos is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Dallas  TX
Posts: 858
Re: Food for one day, how to improve?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dare Vodusek View Post
Luke, are you saying there is no proof in so called "carb crashing" when one have a huge high GI carb meal and soon after he/she feels hunger again (due to quick insulin raise and fall) ?
No, I never said that. Previously I mentioned that 500 calories of jelly beans will have a different impact that 500 calories from green beans despite them both being high in carbs. Just because something is high in carbs does not mean it creates a feeling of hunger soon thereafter. I eat a bowl of cereal and a protein shake every morning, the cereal is very high carb and I am very satiated until I eat lunch 5 hours or more later. The only fats I have are from the little bit of milk in my cereal and half and half I use in my coffee.

Despite this I have had no trouble dropping fat. My body isn't limited in its ability to mobilize its fat stores or any other kind of bro science nonsense.
__________________
Deadlift: 475 | Back Squat: 405 | Front Squat: 320
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2014, 09:43 AM   #79
Dare Vodusek
Member Dare Vodusek is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Kidricevo  Slovania
Posts: 901
Re: Food for one day, how to improve?

I imagine cereal work for you and understand why. But there is a whole different issue with them - lectins. Not good for health and I've eliminated them.

Therefore I cant think of a single carb source that would satiate a person while not having a negative effect on his/her health. Not being a carb fan I might be wrong, so you might offer me some ideas?
__________________
Originally Posted by Rick Scarpulla
Toughness is a state of mind not a size.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2014, 09:53 AM   #80
Todd Neal
Member Todd Neal is offline
 
Todd Neal's Avatar
 
Profile:
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Long Beach  CA
Posts: 317
Re: Food for one day, how to improve?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke Sirakos View Post
You really should read my entire post instead of just cherry picking the one statement that fits your narrative. Carb intake inhibits fat oxidation but an excess of 500 cals of carbs has the same effect of an excess of 500 cals of fat. All it means is when you eat carbs your body shifts to burn those carbs, if you substitute those calories for fat you still have to burn those calories or they are stored.
See I was reading this like, "Carb intake inhibits stored fat oxidation," which you admittedly didn't say. It's an important distinction though, and I wonder if you're on board with the idea: Increased levels of insulin prohibit stored fat oxidation.
__________________
"Know your engine first, then fuel it appropriately."
― Peter Attia
  Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
How can i improve? Waqas Ahmed Siddiqui Starting 17 10-08-2011 07:45 AM
Goodbye, Food Pyramid... Hello, Food Pie! Zane Jones Nutrition 31 08-03-2011 05:27 PM
Using CF to Improve CF David Long Fitness 7 12-10-2007 12:21 PM
Slow Food - Local Food Eric Allen Kerr Nutrition 5 08-24-2007 03:23 AM
Please help improve this C&J Gabe Rinaldi Digital Coaching 3 10-16-2006 05:27 PM


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:24 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
CrossFit is a registered trademark of CrossFit Inc.