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Nutrition Diet, supplements, weightloss, health & longevity

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Old 09-26-2005, 04:55 PM   #1
Taha Mohamedali
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I've read in a couple of posts that zoners are not doing anything special for post workout.

Are people eating a meal asap after working out or what?

From previous research it seems an ideal time to get in a 2-3 block snack/meal so that the recovery process can start right away.

What's the consensus on the post workout "window of opporunity" for protein and carb consumption?
I have a bunch of data supporting elevated protien synthesis and glycogen replenishment on administering about 300 calories of protien:carb 1:2 complex immediately post workout.

Are we ignoring this info because it's too much hassle or is there evidence to prove that it's not worth the time or effort?

Thanks!!

-Taha
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Old 09-26-2005, 07:12 PM   #2
Ronnie Ashlock
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Not that I'm advocating anything in particular, but I am starting to slam a cup of chocolate milk right after an intense workout. Larry Lindenman posted (and continues to post on it because it keeps coming up) some good stuff on chocolate milk and it seems sensible. It goes against my no-sugar ethos, but the hormonal/state right ratio of protein and carbs information is interesting enough for me to at least try it out and see how I do on it.
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Old 09-27-2005, 03:21 AM   #3
Nikki Young
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Ronnie are you talking about chocolate milk in the form of a protien shake? Or just plain old chocolate milk which is milk and sugar? I'm heading more towards the protien chocolate milk because milk has protien but not that much, especially if your consuming it with a whole lot of sugar. You can gain a good ratio of protien and carbs in a drink/meal that doesn't contain un-needed sugar. If your talking about chocolate milk (milk and sugar) Could you give me some more info on why this is stated to be so efficient?

Taha - Post workout meals should be eaten within an hour of your workout. Some people even say within a 45min period. This is because after exercise your body soaks up whatever is put into it like a sponge! After an hour or so your body isn't like a sponge anymore towards what you consume. So lets say you consume a protien and carbohydrate meal within an hour of your exercise - your body will be quicker in restoring the muscles and replenishing them with lost nutrients.
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Old 09-27-2005, 06:01 AM   #4
Ronnie Ashlock
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Hi Nikki

Here's a link to a prior discussion about this very topic. It comes up fairly often. The second post down by Larry Lindenman contains two good links about recovery and chocolate milk (just plain ol' low-fat chocolate milk). Scroll down a bit further and Larry dispenses with even more info.

http://www.crossfit.com/discus/messages/23/7580.html

Of course this is one of those initially "contradictory" things that you wouldn't think a person doing the Zone would advocate. I would normally not drink chocolate milk at all, but it sounds like some people are having some success with it in the old "black box" way and it's dirt cheap. The sponge condition you describe after a workout is what lets you get away with the insulin spike - and the chocolate milk has, apparently, the ideal mix of carbs and protein for recovery. You have a really small window for chugging the milk to be a benefit. Miss the window, and you're just spiking the insulin for no good reason.

I just started doing it Saturday and it did seem to make a difference after a particular grueling mix of "Elizabeth" and a punching-bag-on-the-shoulders-mile. Next day I was sore, but ready for some more pain. Ditto for the following days. If I notice anything negative, I'll stop doing it, but I have felt better after the last few days of trying this.
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Old 09-27-2005, 06:03 AM   #5
Gerhard Lavin
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Hi Nikki

Low fat chocolate milk has an approx 3-1 ratio of carbs to protein. Supposedly the ideal. A half litre has 20g of protein. While i believe it's important to get nutrition in post workout most of what I've read reasantly make me think the whole fast protein, 1 hour windows is a supplement manafacturer conspiracy. If you want to avoid the added sucrose then try fat free condenced milk. More protein, low GI lactose if you can tolerate it, cheap and trasportable. Does taste like sweet wood glue though.
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Old 09-27-2005, 07:42 AM   #6
Dan MacDougald
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In my ignorance I will chime in on this with my present understanding, and I hope others more knowledgeable will correct me.

If you are a sugar burner, exercize depletes your glycogen stores, and they need to be replenished with carbs. In prolonged exercize like endurance events you must replenish during the event or you will "bonk." There is a post exercize window of 30 to 60 minutes in which carb intake results in more rapid muscle glycogen replacement. Outside that window, it takes much longer. This is why Lance Armstrong sucks down Coca-Colas, candy bars, and sugary gel packs during the Tour de France, then loads up on high carb recovery drinks immediately after a stage. Chris Carmichael, Lance's training and nutrition guru, sells pre and post workout drinks that aid recovery with electrolytes and what they consider the optimal carb/protein ratio. Rugby players, on the other hand, use beer.

If you are a fat burner, which is what the Zone is all about, glycogen replacement is not a big issue, you will not bonk in endurance events even if you take in no carbs, and carbs should be avoided in post workout recovery eating/drinking because they blunt or turn off the neuroendocrine response that you have worked so hard to elicit with your workout. For fat burners, a protein/fat recovery meal/drink with little or no carbs is best.

So, optimal post workout nutrition depends on whether you are or want to be a sugar burner or a fat burner.
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Old 09-27-2005, 08:50 AM   #7
Gerhard Lavin
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Excuse my ignorance but how does the Zoe turn you into a fatburner. The Zone isn't low carb enough for someone to enter a state of kethosis so you still using glycogen as a fuel source.
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Old 09-27-2005, 10:19 AM   #8
Robert Wolf
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Taha-

Most people doing the WOD tend to not need a post WO carb load, standard paleo/zone eating does the trick. For a few people the PWO carb load seems to be beneficial if the activity is both long and intense (over an hour of activity AND near the anaerobic threshold).

This brings up a point Dan made that I think needs some fleshing out. People who are following the zone do tend to utilize fat preferentially to carbs but this will not ensure a no bonk performance in endurance events. If one is pushing into the anaerobic threshold region there is no option but to burn carbs. This is a somewhat chicken and egg definition of the anaerobic threshold BTW.

So, one of the side effects of virtually any physical activity is to increase the amount of fat one utilizes for fuel relative to carbs. This can be further enhanced by eating a high fat diet (with adequate protein for recovery and carbs for glycogen-athletes zone fits the bill here). Intermittent fasting enhances this effect even further....but there are limits!

In general I am very hesitant to recommend a PWO carb load based in part on the insulin spiking effects and the relative health benefit of emptying the glycogen stores. Could a Lance Armstrong type athlete get by without the carb spikes? Likely not but he ahs also taken his performance to a place that health and longevity are likely being compromised. Free country, do what you will but I would keep in mind some of the longer term effects of the carb spike and the workload that makes this practice necessary.

Check the archives for material written by Mark Twight on this topic.

Robb
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Old 09-27-2005, 10:19 AM   #9
Dan MacDougald
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Ger, you may be correct. I hope one the smart folks chimes in soon, but I don't think you have to be in ketosis, which the Atkins Diet wants, to be a fat burner in the Zone.
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Old 09-27-2005, 10:50 AM   #10
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Ger--you don't need to be ketogenic to be burning fat as a primary fuel throughout the day.

Re milk. Dairy elicits an inordinate insulin spike, which, combined with the post-workout glycogen-sucking window, I would assume is the reason behind its success (which I've not heard of before this thread). BUT, dairy is rife with problematic qualities (like the insulin response) that make it to me something to avoid entirely. One I've had problems with is joint pain/inflammation.

I did the much higher carb load post-workout racket for years with marginal results at best. I've been doing straight zone for a quite a while now, nothing different post workout, and have had far more dramatic improvements in performance and body comp in that time than I've ever had previously.

As far as timing goes, I tend to eat soon after working out when I'm doing primarily strength-oriented training (like O-lifting), particularly if I'm needing to gain weight at the time. Then when doing MetCon, I usually wait up to about an hour--seems to significantly improve the fat-burning effects of the AM empty stomach training.
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