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Old 07-01-2008, 01:50 PM   #31
Celio Silva
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Re: ***** Kimbo Bring On Brock

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Originally Posted by Phillip Garrisonq View Post
Getting armbarred and choked isn't the same as an ankle lock. The ankle lock is a move most veteran grapplers rarely get caught.
True that most veteran grapplers can avoid an ankle lock, but Lesnar has a loooonnnnnng way before being a veteran grappler.

And he was caught in a kneebar, not an ankle lock. And a guy like him will always be susceptible to kneebars. Mir had the perfect strategy.
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Old 07-01-2008, 02:10 PM   #32
Phillip Garrison
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Re: ***** Kimbo Bring On Brock

Well he got caught in the knee bar after Mir went for the ankle lock. Of course this was after Lesnar through him a beating.
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Old 07-01-2008, 09:21 PM   #33
James Besenyei
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Re: ***** Kimbo Bring On Brock

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Originally Posted by Celio Silva View Post
Lesnar is . . . still light years behind when it comes to fighting, particularly grappling.
From an article:

"Brock Lesnar dominated Big Ten collegiate wrestling like no other athlete had from late 1998 to mid 2000. Dominating opponents left and right, he earned a reputation for disposing oppenents as quickly as they came, earning nicknames such as "Terminator" or "RoboCop", or insert your favorite indestructible force, 'cause it's been used.

Lesnar grew up on a farm near Webster, South Dakota. He took up wrestling and went from a 3rd place finish at the South Dakota prep championships to a 33-0 record in his senior year of high school. Choosing minute Bismarck Junior College in North Dakota, Brock first earned his keep by winning the Heavyweight bracket in the North Dakota State University's annual Bison Open Tournament by beating Brent Boeschans of Minnesota, a school that was/is a major force in the world of NCAA wrestling. In 1998, Brock won his 2nd straight Bison Open title, and became the Heavyweight (285 lbs.) bracket champion in the National Junior College Athletic Association (NJCAA), just before BJC discontinued its wrestling program due to financial cuts following the 1997-98 school year. Minnesota wrestling coach J Robinson watched Brock in awe at the Finals of the NJCAA and managed to sign him to transfer to Minnesota. In just 2 years at BJC, Brock had accumulated a 56-3 record.

Now as a member of the Minnesota Gophers, Brock seized the attention of Big Ten and NCAA wrestling fans with his chiseled, ripped physique and a Bill Goldberg-like dominance of opponents, going 24-1 in his first year, with his only loss coming from Iowa State's Trent Hynek). Wading through the competition, Minnesota won the Big Ten wrestling title in 1999, ending a 25 year win streak of arch-rival Iowa. Unfortunately, Lesnar lost in the finals of the NCAA Championships to Stephen Neal of Cal State-Bakersfield in a 3-2 decision that cost Minnesota a chance to be National Champions; arch-rival Iowa won instead.

In 2000, Brock and company wanted to prove that 1999 was no fluke. As he had in the past, Lesnar tossed aside all opponents, coasting to a 26-1 record (with his defeat at the hands of a close 5-3 decision from Iowa's Wes Hand) and ranked as the #1 heavyweight in the Big Ten. Brock avenged his loss by destroying the Heavyweight bracket at the NCAA finals, then defeating Hand with a 3-2 decision in overtime with an escape in the final match, achieving a lifelong dream by becoming an NCAA heavyweight champion. Overall, his career wrestling record is 106-5 (56-3 at BJC, 50-2 at Minnesota)."
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Old 07-01-2008, 09:51 PM   #34
Phillip Garrison
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Re: ***** Kimbo Bring On Brock

Lesnar is far from light years behind. It doesn't take for a world class wrestler, to learn other forms of grappling, just look at Randy
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Old 07-03-2008, 09:47 AM   #35
Celio Silva
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Re: ***** Kimbo Bring On Brock

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Originally Posted by Phillip Garrisonq View Post
Well he got caught in the knee bar after Mir went for the ankle lock. Of course this was after Lesnar through him a beating.
Phillip, u might wanna watch that fight again. Mir went straight to the knee. And while a grappler may attempt to attack the ankle after missing an attack on the knee, it's very unlikely one will even attempt to attack the knee after attacking the ankle, let alone get it.

Lesnar hit Mir w/ some nasty hammer fists and elbows but by no means did he put him through a beating. The fight didn't even last 2 min. Lesnar quickly fell victim to the grapplers realm: the willingness to close the distance and take some punishment in order to submit his/her opponent. It dosen't matter how much punishment one can dish out if one end up caught in a submission. Ultimately, is the one who finishes his opponent who wins the fight, whether in the cage or in real life.

Lesnar is definately a strong prospect. Just take one look at the guy and his record, and listen to him talk and you know he is serious about making noise in the HW division. However, he is indeed faaaaarrrrr behind when it comes to fighting. Randy was submiting and being submitted 10 years ago. Grappling and striking efficiency takes years. Wrestling on the other hand is mostly athleticism. Grappling and striking, however athletic, are disciplines based heavily on techinque, which again, take years to master it. Lesnar has a good foundation to build upon, but he got a long way to go, and I am not convinced he'll fare well.
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Old 07-03-2008, 12:31 PM   #36
Phillip Garrison
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Re: ***** Kimbo Bring On Brock

Look at Mir's face after the fight, and look at Lesnars. Even Mir admitted he went for the kneebar out of desperation becuase he was getting pummeled. Yes the fight only last 2 minutes, but one can get beaten to death in 2 minutes by a powerful enough striking barrage.
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Old 07-03-2008, 09:46 PM   #37
Benjamin Walsh
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Re: ***** Kimbo Bring On Brock

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Wrestling on the other hand is mostly athleticism.
This is an ignorant statement. You are either being provacative or you have no idea what you are talking about. Watch this Saitiev Highlight or one of these John Smith world championship finals matches: one two. Do you think those movements are improvised? Every situation, movement and combination of movements has been trained thousands of times.

Frankly, even the disctinction between wrestling and grappling is specious. Grappling IS a form of wrestling. There are hundreds of wrestling styles practiced throughout the world including BJJ, and Judo. BJJ focuses on submissions. Judo rewards throws, submissions and control. Greco Roman is about upper body throws. Freestyle rewards all manner of take downs. In Sumo and Mongolian wrestling, making the oponent touch the ground with certain body parts brings victory. In some parts of Mongolia leg kicks are allowed. If you like grappling more than other forms of wrestling that's fine, but suggesting one style has more technique than others is just silly.

The number 1 ranked freestyle wrestler at 55 kilograms is Bayaraa Naranbaatar, from mongolia. He grew up with this style. He has adapted just fine.

Just for kicks, here is a Randy Couture losing in the finals of the 1990 world quialifier. He has incredible conditioning, but falls victim to a very big throw.

Brock Lesnar, as far as I know, never wrestled internationally. Steven Neal, who beat Lesner 3-2 in the 1999 NCAA finals, and now plays guard for the New England Patriots, was also world champion in 1999. Neal coasts with the lead vs. Lesnar, but is obviously the more gifted and more skilled (if less muscular) athlete. Lesnar never gets close to taking Neal down.

Here is where I agree with you: If you watch this video of Lesnar in the 2000 NCAA final you will see that although he wins, he is not very fast or flexible, his conditioning is only good enough to work at a ponderous pace, he shows little offense on his feet. He gets called for stalling twice and could have been penalized again in overtime! He is, however, very, very big. If you compare Lesnar's wrestling to Couture's, it is easy to imagine Lesnar not flourishing quickly, if at all, in MMA. Frankie Edgar's wrestling, while fairly dominant in the UFC, is clearly primitive compared to greats like Saitiev or Smith. Somewhere in the middle is Randy Couture, an elite wrestler, but never a contender for a world championship. Lesnar, although he was more successful than Edgar in college, wrestled at an easier weight class in which his size was a huge advantage. Take down defense, his strength, is not going to win Lesnar a fight against a top guy. If you were to say that Lesnar's technique is not on par with a top grappler's, I would agree. Lesnar is NOT a bigger version of Couture.

All links WFS. Just Wrestling.
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Old 07-04-2008, 11:59 AM   #38
Charles Henning
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Re: ***** Kimbo Bring On Brock

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Originally Posted by Celio Silva View Post
True that most veteran grapplers can avoid an ankle lock, but Lesnar has a loooonnnnnng way before being a veteran grappler.

And he was caught in a kneebar, not an ankle lock. And a guy like him will always be susceptible to kneebars. Mir had the perfect strategy.
He already is a veteran grappler, Celio. Wreslter, grappler same thing, bro. Now I will agree with you he needs work on his ground game.
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Old 07-04-2008, 05:17 PM   #39
Jason Lopez-Ota
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Re: ***** Kimbo Bring On Brock

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Originally Posted by Benjamin Walsh View Post
This is an ignorant statement. You are either being provacative or you have no idea what you are talking about. Watch this Saitiev Highlight or one of these John Smith world championship finals matches: one two. Do you think those movements are improvised? Every situation, movement and combination of movements has been trained thousands of times.

Frankly, even the disctinction between wrestling and grappling is specious. Grappling IS a form of wrestling. There are hundreds of wrestling styles practiced throughout the world including BJJ, and Judo. BJJ focuses on submissions. Judo rewards throws, submissions and control. Greco Roman is about upper body throws. Freestyle rewards all manner of take downs. In Sumo and Mongolian wrestling, making the oponent touch the ground with certain body parts brings victory. In some parts of Mongolia leg kicks are allowed. If you like grappling more than other forms of wrestling that's fine, but suggesting one style has more technique than others is just silly.

The number 1 ranked freestyle wrestler at 55 kilograms is Bayaraa Naranbaatar, from mongolia. He grew up with this style. He has adapted just fine.

Just for kicks, here is a Randy Couture losing in the finals of the 1990 world quialifier. He has incredible conditioning, but falls victim to a very big throw.

Brock Lesnar, as far as I know, never wrestled internationally. Steven Neal, who beat Lesner 3-2 in the 1999 NCAA finals, and now plays guard for the New England Patriots, was also world champion in 1999. Neal coasts with the lead vs. Lesnar, but is obviously the more gifted and more skilled (if less muscular) athlete. Lesnar never gets close to taking Neal down.

Here is where I agree with you: If you watch this video of Lesnar in the 2000 NCAA final you will see that although he wins, he is not very fast or flexible, his conditioning is only good enough to work at a ponderous pace, he shows little offense on his feet. He gets called for stalling twice and could have been penalized again in overtime! He is, however, very, very big. If you compare Lesnar's wrestling to Couture's, it is easy to imagine Lesnar not flourishing quickly, if at all, in MMA. Frankie Edgar's wrestling, while fairly dominant in the UFC, is clearly primitive compared to greats like Saitiev or Smith. Somewhere in the middle is Randy Couture, an elite wrestler, but never a contender for a world championship. Lesnar, although he was more successful than Edgar in college, wrestled at an easier weight class in which his size was a huge advantage. Take down defense, his strength, is not going to win Lesnar a fight against a top guy. If you were to say that Lesnar's technique is not on par with a top grappler's, I would agree. Lesnar is NOT a bigger version of Couture.

All links WFS. Just Wrestling.
Agreed, I've wrestled. You can be as strong as a bull but still get pinned if you lack technique.
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Old 07-04-2008, 10:44 PM   #40
Phillip Garrison
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Re: ***** Kimbo Bring On Brock

I don't think Lesnar ever did international, but he was a National Champion, which is no small feat. It's also worlds apart from any accomplishments Kimbo has had. Who's professional resume is three mediocre fighters, two of which have losing records one of which is so old and past his prime I'm amazed he got a license to fight, and .500 record kickboxer who took him down with ease. Brock's amateur record is stellar, and his one pro fight he did well against a former champion in the premier fight league of MMA.
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