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Old 05-12-2009, 11:41 AM   #21
Laura Kurth
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Re: Dietary Fat, Insulin, and Glucagon

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...except that, when diets of equal caloric value, one with lots of fat and low carbs, and the other with lots of carbs and low in fat, go head-to-head, the low carb diet performs much better in terms of fat loss.
Really. Please point me to the controlled study where this was exhibited, I would love to read it.

(I am not interested in anecdotal 'evidence')
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Old 05-12-2009, 01:21 PM   #22
Evan Hobbs
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Re: Dietary Fat, Insulin, and Glucagon

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Originally Posted by Sam Ser View Post
...except that, when diets of equal caloric value, one with lots of fat and low carbs, and the other with lots of carbs and low in fat, go head-to-head, the low carb diet performs much better in terms of fat loss.
I can't link to a study because I can't remember where I saw it (so you don't have to take me at my word) but I remember reading one where they found the low carbers lost weight a lot faster initially but then leveled out whereas the normal carbers lost weight more slowly but consistantly--after 12 months the weight loss was more or less equal...
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Old 05-12-2009, 01:36 PM   #23
Laura Kurth
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Re: Dietary Fat, Insulin, and Glucagon

Because when you go low carb you lose water weight almost immediately (carbs attract water in the body)

Giving the illusion of weight loss in the beginning.
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Old 05-12-2009, 01:42 PM   #24
Roelant Bergen
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Re: Dietary Fat, Insulin, and Glucagon

I'm having spaghetti as I'm reading this thread....whole wheat of course, but I just feel "naughty" right now
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Old 05-12-2009, 01:46 PM   #25
Laura Kurth
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Re: Dietary Fat, Insulin, and Glucagon

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I'm having spaghetti as I'm reading this thread....whole wheat of course, but I just feel "naughty" right now
he he he

I used to feel bad about eating oatmeal
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Old 05-12-2009, 01:47 PM   #26
Laszlo Madarassy
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Re: Dietary Fat, Insulin, and Glucagon

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Originally Posted by Sam Ser View Post
...except that, when diets of equal caloric value, one with lots of fat and low carbs, and the other with lots of carbs and low in fat, go head-to-head, the low carb diet performs much better in terms of fat loss.
If my glucagon level is high I burn fat for energy, I know that. But if my calorie value is equal to the "bad" high carb, low fat diet, isn't it possible that the fat which I burn for energy is derived from dietery fat whether than body fat? In this case this two diets are the same if I've no problem with carb metabolism.
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Old 05-12-2009, 01:57 PM   #27
Tom Furman
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Re: Dietary Fat, Insulin, and Glucagon

I asked Lyle that about weight loss on low fat vs low carbs.. The high carb diet is usually deficient in protein. Something like 10-10-80 for Pritikin, Eat to Win, Ornish, etc. Zone, or Lyle McDonald would say to find the optimal protein based on lean body mass, like Robb Wolf says. Retention of muscle would be the difference.

BTW it's fat loss and not weight loss.
Not a lot of this matters till you get close to 10% fat in men and 'who knows' in women. Then the science of nutrient partitioning, Post Workout Meal, etc., are important. Just put less in your mouth unless you avoid responsiblity and claim those little hooded gnomes from the movie Phantasm stuff bagels in your mouth all night as you sleep.
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Old 05-12-2009, 02:10 PM   #28
Evan Hobbs
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Re: Dietary Fat, Insulin, and Glucagon

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Originally Posted by Laura Kurth View Post
Because when you go low carb you lose water weight almost immediately (carbs attract water in the body)

Giving the illusion of weight loss in the beginning.
I think that's a little bit of an overstatement. Sure the initial loss will be water weight (this also happens to a lesser extent in normal low cal diets). But in general, I think it's fair to say that with two isocaloric diets, fat loss for the low carb will be more than the normal carb at least over the first month or two.

I'm also not interested in anecdotal evidence. If you have a study that shows increased fat loss for low carb diets is merely an illusion caused by water loss I'd love to see it.
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Old 05-12-2009, 02:12 PM   #29
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Re: Dietary Fat, Insulin, and Glucagon

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Because when you go low carb you lose water weight almost immediately (carbs attract water in the body)

Giving the illusion of weight loss in the beginning.
No, this is incorrect.

On a low carb hypocaloric diet, your body starts consuming the glycogen stores in the muscles for fuel (since it's used to consuming lots of carbs). Since glycogen is a polymer, it requires a water molecule to break the bond, and then the glucose 6 phosphate is oxidized for energy. This leads to a net loss of the carbohydrates, as well as the water to break the glycosidic bond.

Once you run out of glycogen, that's when you'll generally feel tired and lethargic on the diet. At this point, your body starts increasing fat oxidizing enzymes to keep up with the energy demands... and then a couple days (or up to a couple weeks) later you'll generally feel better once you have enough fat enzymes to keep up with energy demand.


On an isocaloric diet with higher fat, the fat cannot be utilized YET because there is not enough fat metabolizing enzymes. Thus, your body will still dip into the aforementioned glycogen stores for energy leading to consumption of the carbohydrates and water thus leading to the transient weight loss. The fat will be initially stored in adipose tissue, until at which time the body has enough enzymes to metabolize it.
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Last edited by Steven Low : 05-12-2009 at 02:15 PM.
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Old 05-12-2009, 02:22 PM   #30
Katherine Derbyshire
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Re: Dietary Fat, Insulin, and Glucagon

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I think that's a little bit of an overstatement. Sure the initial loss will be water weight (this also happens to a lesser extent in normal low cal diets). But in general, I think it's fair to say that with two isocaloric diets, fat loss for the low carb will be more than the normal carb at least over the first month or two.
How closely are you controlling the study participants' intake? Unless you've got them in a lab with no outside food -- which makes your study VERY expensive -- you don't know WHAT they're eating. Food diaries are notoriously inaccurate, especially over extended periods.

Protein and fat make you feel fuller than carbs, especially high GI carbs. It's entirely possible that the low carb people are less likely to cheat than the normal carb people, and therefore the two diets aren't actually isocaloric. Yes, the low carb people will lose more weight, but it's because they're *eating less*, not because of carb metabolism effects.

Katherine
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