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Old 12-29-2008, 02:41 PM   #71
Amber Mathwig
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Re: Don't believe in Paleo because...

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Originally Posted by Dave Hancock View Post
I think you mean "Good Calories, Bad Calories". Definitely not a "light" read.
Yep, got corrected on that one already. This post isn't light reading for me either. On one hand I feel dumb....on the other hand I think after I re-read the posts a few times, they might start to make sense and I'll feel smarter for having stuck through reading all the back and forth's and maybe have some debate material for future family dinners.

But seriously, Robb, could we possibly get another Playboy analogy here for those of us who didn't major in smart people stuff?
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Old 12-29-2008, 02:42 PM   #72
John S Park
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Re: Don't believe in Paleo because...

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Scott, I did not present the concept. I recommended the book for further modification and understanding of the diet I had been working on him with. Upon reading the book, how much I don't know, I got a phone call. He was aggressive towards the concept.

He was offended to his very core. So we agreed to disagree. He was not going to be a regular client, so I saved what I could of an relationship, patted him on rear, and sent him on his way.

I guess I had viewed it that even from a Biblical perspective...Eden was sort of Paleo, and after "The Fall" Adam and Eve's diets changed because they "worked the land" and "toiled in the dirt". So regardless of outlooks, it was a sound approach to eating.
have you read the book Ishmael by Daniel Quinn? he has an interesting interpretation of "the Fall" and "Cain and Abel"

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Ishmael proposes that the story of Genesis was written by the Semites, and later adapted to work within Hebrew and Christian belief structures. Ishmael proposes that Abel and his extinction metaphorically represents the nomadic Semites and their losing conflict with agriculturalists. As they were driven further into the Arabian peninsula, the Semites became isolated from other herding cultures and, according to Ishmael, illustrated their plight through oral history, which was later adopted into the Hebrew book of Genesis.

Ishmael denies that the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil was forbidden of humans simply to test human's self-control. Instead, Ishmael proposes that the Tree represents the choice to bear the burden of responsibility of deciding which species may live and which should die. This is a necessary decision agricultural peoples must make when deciding which organisms to cultivate, which to displace, and which to kill in protection of the first.

Ishmael explains that the Fall of Adam represents the Semitic belief that once mankind usurps this responsibility - historically decided through natural ecology (i.e. food chains) - that mankind will perish. He cites as fulfillment of this prophecy contemporary environmental crises such as endangered or extinct species, global warming, and modern mental illnesses.

Adam in Hebrew translates to "Man" and Eve translates to "Life." The story was written by the Hebrews and was passed down from their ancestors the Semites, but they didn't understand the meaning behind it because the Hebrews wanted to be tillers like their neighbors, unlike the herding Semites. He is saying that Life is tempting Man of the knowledge of good and evil (What is good for one is always evil for another, ex: lion eats deer, good for lion, bad for deer. Deer gets away, good for deer, but evil for lion as he has to starve. Man takes land for farming, all animals dissapear).

Cain was a symbol for the tilleres who tilled their soil with the blood of Abel, the Semites. The agriculturalists were farming this food, and more food means a never ending growing population. More people means more need for food so they would kill the Semites or any other hunter-gatherers for more land, because they figured since agriculture was good for them, they didn't care about any other way of life or animal, so they drove them out. The very few hunter gatherer tribes that exist today are product of millions of years of survival knowledge. Thousands of generations of trial and error what every plant does, and survival techniques. And by wiping them out, we, whose way of life existed for less than 10,000 years (less than .005% of man's existance, are wiping out knowledge that allowed man to survive for millions of years. Once that knowledge is gone, and we run out of space or resources, the fall of man will be fulfilled

Until today, where our population is over 6 billion where half of those people are not even 15 years old yet. Growing and growing until all of our resources are gone, because we took life into our own hands instead of following nature's laws. We never have to worry about population control as hunter gatherer tribes do because having food is never a worry. We are also wiping out rain forests everday, where almost all of natural remedies and cures come from (many of which we have not discovered and possible cures for diseases we can't cure on our own). It is also sad that species that are the culmination of evolution are being wiped out.
Here is another explanation http://www.ishmael.org/interaction/q...CFM?Record=619 wfs. just wanted to share, it is a great book i just read . It can't be proved but it makes a lot more sense

Last edited by John S Park; 12-29-2008 at 02:57 PM..
 
Old 12-29-2008, 02:43 PM   #73
Phillip Garrison
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Re: Don't believe in Paleo because...

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That depends, do you like cottage cheese.
Good point
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Old 12-29-2008, 02:43 PM   #74
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Re: Don't believe in Paleo because...

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What about bacteria? They display mutation and evolution all the time?
I'm not arguing against adaptation, but have we ever observed them become anything but another bacteria?

There's plenty of support for microevolution within an organism. You can look at the various breeds of dogs to easily see that. But they're all still dogs.

I suppose I should have made the distinction between micro vs. Macro evolution from the beggining. Micro is not an issue to me, but I only see it within the same organisms.
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Old 12-29-2008, 02:46 PM   #75
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Re: Don't believe in Paleo because...

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I'm not arguing against adaptation, but have we ever observed them become anything but another bacteria?

There's plenty of support for microevolution within an organism. You can look at the various breeds of dogs to easily see that. But they're all still dogs.

I suppose I should have made the distinction between micro vs. Macro evolution from the beggining. Micro is not an issue to me, but I only see it within the same organisms.
Evolution is change in a species over time. Plain and simple. Bacterias genetic's change all time, and bacteria become new species of bacteria, if that's not evolution, than what is evolution? What about birds who eventually evolve into new species of birds? Or is that still microevolution?
 
Old 12-29-2008, 02:48 PM   #76
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Re: Don't believe in Paleo because...

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I don't think we're in disagreement here. I don't eat bread. But I do eat rice, and I do like oatmeal. It's entirely conceivable that people in history ate wild oats and wild rice; even more likely wild corn. If it were wild, obviously it would only account for a very small portion of someone's diet... as it does in mine.
I think the problem is that it's poisonous if it's not cooked, so knowledge must be applied to eat it, and that had to be developed and spread over time. As for corn, the Omnivore's Dilemma has more to say about it's current state.
 
Old 12-29-2008, 02:48 PM   #77
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Re: Don't believe in Paleo because...

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We can mathematically prove that the earth is more than three seconds old. In fact we can empirically prove it's billions of years old. Unless all we know about physics and math are wrong. But this discussion is going nowhere quickly, and could turn into an ugly religion vs science debate that never works out.
Just to be clear, I don't believe the Earth is three seconds old, and I'm not super-interested in other people's religious views. There's very little point in discussing them, it would be against the AUP, and I don't want to talk about them here.

What I do want to say is, maths can't prove anything about the real world. You need science - observations - as well. Maths without data is fascinating, but not directly related to the physical world.

There's nothing logically impossible about the entire observable universe being created, just as we see it now, a millisecond before you read this post. There's just not a shred of evidence for this it, either. All the laws would still work. All of your memories would be consistent (not true, but consistent).
 
Old 12-29-2008, 02:52 PM   #78
Jamie J. Skibicki
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Re: Don't believe in Paleo because...

James,

That reminds me of bonus question from quantum.

"Describe the world if Planks constant was 1".

I still have flashbacks.
 
Old 12-29-2008, 02:58 PM   #79
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Re: Don't believe in Paleo because...

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Just to be clear, I don't believe the Earth is three seconds old, and I'm not super-interested in other people's religious views. There's very little point in discussing them, it would be against the AUP, and I don't want to talk about them here.

What I do want to say is, maths can't prove anything about the real world. You need science - observations - as well. Maths without data is fascinating, but not directly related to the physical world.

There's nothing logically impossible about the entire observable universe being created, just as we see it now, a millisecond before you read this post. There's just not a shred of evidence for this it, either. All the laws would still work. All of your memories would be consistent (not true, but consistent).
Math can prove that renaissance rich white men, were really smart, and really bored.
 
Old 12-29-2008, 02:59 PM   #80
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Re: Don't believe in Paleo because...

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I think the problem is that it's poisonous if it's not cooked, so knowledge must be applied to eat it, and that had to be developed and spread over time. As for corn, the Omnivore's Dilemma has more to say about it's current state.
Oats are poisonous if they aren't cooked? news to me.
And yes, corn as we know it now is pretty far removed from how it began. Indigenous people's did eat quite a bit of it too. I guess it was Maze back then.
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