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Old 11-10-2008, 03:44 PM   #71
Phillip Garrison
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Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit

If it seems i'm not supportive of CF, that's not the case. I'm a big proponent of CF for many people, I'm also a big fan of Gym Jones, Undulating Periodization, Bloc Training, Bondercjuk, Westside, Athletes Performance to name a few. Like Cf I'm a fan of them becuase they produce results and are well planned out, and like CF I think while good programs, they have all inherent weaknesses, all programs do.
Old 11-11-2008, 03:01 AM   #72
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Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit


We never made fun of Rhabdo. Kami doesn’t make fun of HIV. Smokey isn’t making fun of burned bears. I don’t know if I could be any clearer.

I’ve got no interest in removing myself from the “stigma of rhabdo”. If educating people causes others, like yourself, to be confused, that’s a price I will gladly pay. Our game plan has always been to win over the smart people first.

I have no choice but to take your word for your claim that you knew about rhabdo ahead of our work

Where did you get the idea that I thought that the military’s implementation and adoption of CrossFit was proof of anything? Why in the world would you put “proof” in quotation marks? Look, here’s where I goofed. I responded to what you posted not what you’d meant to say; I do that a lot. You said, (notice the quotes) “He didn't bother with the cert, because outside of CF it doesn't really hold any creed.” That statement is flat out false. By the way, proof is the exclusive province of mathematics. Science doesn’t involve proof or proving.

Your claim that CrossFit is not revolutionary “since you/it espouses concepts and exercises that have been part of professional and academic S&C curriculum for over 50 years…” is illogical nonsense. We did nothing new just took the same old stuff and combined it in new ways? In this manner no recipe is original if the ingredients are known. No song is original if the same old notes are used. No poem is original if the words contained therein are found in the dictionary.

Your comment about the “relatively uneducated masses” is an insult and coming from a guy who too often fails to create coherent sentences, struggles with simple logic, grammar, and spelling, misuses quotations, and offers NSCA and ACSM membership as scientific credentials it is insufferable. Philip you’re less educated than most of the people posting here and most assuredly less educated than our best educated. (I’m being nice here because my biographer from T-Nation, Chris Shugart, is here)

You say that “the criticisims that many have about CF are that they have not been subject to scientific scrutiny using the rigid standards to which many of the protocols espoused by Epley, Poliqiun, etc have had their training protocols held up to”. First of all, I’ve not seen that criticism anywhere. Second I don’t know of any scientific scrutiny of any fitness program.

You say that Epley and Poliquin are ”willing to let the training programs they espouse be put up to scrutiny both in the labratory and on the field of athletic performance, which may be their particular problem with CF”. Are you implying that I’m not willing to have the scientific validity of CrossFit be tested? I’m not only willing but begging.

The problem is that NSCA and ACSM "members" like you don’t see in language like this,

“Our very public and constant claim is that fitness is best defined as work capacity across broad time and modal domains; that meaningful assertions about a program need to address safety, efficacy, and efficiency with measurable, observable, repeatable data; that constantly varied, high intensity, functional movement delivered in a competitive sporting environment has produced unprecedented work capacity across broad time and modal domains (fitness); that by incorporating a lifestyle, including diet, rest, and workout elements that cause common health and fitness metrics to move simultaneously from pathological, past “normal”, to “fit” values we introduce a third axis, age, that turns our two dimensional work capacity area under the curve to a three dimensional solid whose volume defines both health and fitness (making health a logical facet of fitness); that all of this needs to be delivered publicly where methods, results, and criticisms, are transparent and, finally, that iterations of this effort have fed an open source community where experimentation will demonstrate best practices and ultimately advance the art and science of human performance .”

any testable propositions, scientific assertions – hypothesis or theories. They don’t recognize a revolutionary approach to fitness and a revolutionary quantifiable model of fitness and health that for the first time integrates both. They don’t see an intriguing new social construct for advancing human performance threatening to outpace and replace moribund commercial and academic approaches. They’re not willing to respond to a dialog that would be made meaningful by accepting our call for evidence-based fitness.

They don’t see data in performance scores when they’re posted as workout results or where people are having fun.

What they offer in response is mindless screed like you and T-Nation’s readers offer. Notice, friends, how not one poster at T-Nation even peripherally offers a criticism of CrossFit’s fundamental assertions. Not one.

There’s no evidence to suggest that my friend and biographer, Chris Shugart, or ANY of the posters have learned what it is that CrossFit claims.

How can you take my challenge of reviewing CrossFit and every other fitness program by examining effect, efficiency, and safety with measurable, observable, repeatable data, and then imply our unwillingness to engage in scientific inquiry?

Your claim that CrossFit has not been put to scrutiny on the field of athletic performance is an insult to the professional, Olympic, collegiate, and amateur champions that grace these very pages and workout with our affiliates around the world. It also speaks to my contention that you know very little about CrossFit.

The best you could do with any of this was what you offered here? Philip, you’re in way over your head.

Again, read more, post less.

Chris Shugart, I’m trying to be nicer. I really am.
Old 11-11-2008, 07:34 AM   #73
Kevin Wood
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Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit

Coach - You should really write a book.
Old 11-11-2008, 07:49 AM   #74
Casey Raiford
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Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit

I was just thinking the other day that I'd really like a Crossfit book.
Old 11-11-2008, 12:49 PM   #75
Shawn Casey
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Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit

All I have to say is that I've never looked a uncle rhabdo and laughed or said," Damn, I want to be like that guy". I see a clown(a word that's known for a careless person) with his kidneys on the floor and I think, "damn, what's that all about" and then I look around and find out about rhabdo and then I don't do what he did to get his kidneys on the floor. I tell myself,"damn, I'd better scale". Plus, unless I'm mistaken, the only guy that didn't come back to crossfit after a case of rhabdo was the sailor guy and obviously that dude was way out of shape. Plus, no one has died from crossfit induced rhabdo so, my point of view is that car crash rhabdo= not funny, crossfit rhabdo= not so bad if you joke about it.

I also want to point out that I don't blame coach or crossfit for putting out technically difficult exercises to the masses and then some *******es going straight into the WOD or trying to squat clean 135 lbs without learning the technique first. I blame the gobo gyms, the pinsetters,the magazines, nautilus, stability balls, and the ab rocker; here's why. Your average joe goes to the gym and all the exercises are really easy, he does routines with these exercises for awhile ,then he sees some jerkoff in Fitness rx doing an overhead squat or a power clean with the bar in his hands(not in the rack position) or he gets on crossfit and doesn't read start here. Joe thinks this looks really cool but he doesn't distinguish between a powerclean and barbell row or a metcon from a pace circuit(just like curves)or a ti bao class and he goes into the gym and throughs 135 lbs on the bar and tries to clean or goes full force on Angie. We all have to remember that part of being in a country like America and having the freedom that comes along with it also means taking responsibility for ones self. Sure, I have the balls to run a marathon tomarrow but, after doing nothing but the Rippitoe's for 5 months, I don't think it's a good idea.

Next to putting a blood red sign pointing to the start here button, I don't think coach can do much to spark responsibility in people. That was there parents job......

.........or maybe I'm just way out of line.
Old 11-11-2008, 12:53 PM   #76
Shawn Casey
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Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit

Oh and Mr. Waterbury, thanks for making your first post. Your welcome here anytime. Some people here want to know about building mass and that stuff so, unless you preach 2 in. curls in a squat rack, I'm all ears.
Old 11-11-2008, 01:33 PM   #77
Ganine Vanalst
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Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit

Like other posters I can’t understand the controversy over Uncle Rhabdo. Who gives a sh*t if it’s a clown getting the message out; injecting a little humor into the delivery does not negate the educational value of the message be delivered. Now if CrossFit chose to deliver the message using a syphilitic whore riding naked barebacked on a well-hung horse enticing all those who cross her path to engage in feats of sexual acrobatics (using gymnastics rings of course) that result in Rhabdo, well…then…maybe I could understand why people would be offended. But a clown? Lighten up. As an earlier poster observed, this seems to be a case of confusing the messenger with the message. The bottom line is the information is being disseminated to the general public and that is of immense value. Uncle Rhabdo is not offensive; willful ignorance is offensive.

I am a certified personal trainer with ACSM and a hypochondriac (there are not many diseases or disorders I haven’t heard of and suffered from at least once) and I’ve never heard of Rhabdo until I found CrossFit. I am also a member of ACSM. I receive their journal, Health & Fitness, every month and get emails from them regularly; I can’t recall ever reading about Rhabdo in an ACSM journal or email. Last week I looked through my ACSM training manuals for mention of Rhabdo and could not find one. CrossFit is not being irresponsible; the failure to promote awareness of Rhabdo by a certifying body of fitness professionals that consider themselves “the gold standard” is irresponsible.

Last edited by Ganine Vanalst; 11-11-2008 at 01:37 PM.. Reason: Forgot to hyphenate "well-hung." :-)
Old 11-11-2008, 01:49 PM   #78
Jamie J. Skibicki
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Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit

"syphilitic whore riding naked barebacked on a well-hung horse enticing all those who cross her path to engage in feats of sexual acrobatics (using gymnastics rings of course) that result in Rhabdo"

I love this guy, we so need to hang out.

Last edited by Jamie J. Skibicki; 11-11-2008 at 01:51 PM.. Reason: It appears "Ganine" is a girls name, I'm so embarrassed
Old 11-11-2008, 01:49 PM   #79
Brandon Oto
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Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit

Well, now that we seem to have you on the line, here's a specific methodological concern as you seem to be asking for, Glassman:

What specific reasons do you have for labeling work capacity as the primary goal of CrossFit, over and above other athletic demands?

I've asked and wondered this before, both publicly and privately. You seem to assert that this is the sine qua non of fitness, but it's not clear why this should be true, given that for some activities it's a critical component (boxing), but for others it's minimally relevant (powerlifting). Perhaps you could weigh in on this.
Old 11-11-2008, 02:40 PM   #80
David Vessey
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Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit

Originally Posted by Coach View Post

If educating people causes others, like yourself, to be confused, that’s a price I will gladly pay. Our game plan has always been to win over the smart people first.

Coach, you come off rough, but I gotta say I love this quote. I'm all for helping people, but enough of constantly aiming for the lowest common denominator.
Mens Sana In Corpore Sano
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