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Old 07-22-2011, 05:11 PM   #111
Steven Low
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Re: Whole Grain? Is it healthier than not?

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Originally Posted by Michael Dowling View Post
Paleo man didn't concern himself with life after 40, he was either crushed by a mammoth or died of a tooth infection at 33. Heart disease, cancer etc... Just weren't a worry. Fact is we don't really know what the modern adaptation of the paleo diet will do to people long term since it really just came en vogue. Most tribes that are hunters and gatherers have far different diets than the paleo followers of western society.
Seriously?

I can't believe people continue to spout of this bunch of crap without doing any research.

http://www.anth.ucsb.edu/faculty/gur...lan2007pdr.pdf

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The average modal age of adult death for hunter-gatherers is 72 with a range of 68–78 years. This range appears to be the closest functional equivalent of an “adaptive” human life span.
That's sure as hell pretty close to most 1st world countries.

And that's with their crappy sanitation, no such thing as penicillin, etc.

Oh, and you don't see cardiovascular disease in these populations because it doesn't exist even though they live as long.
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Old 07-22-2011, 05:22 PM   #112
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Re: Whole Grain? Is it healthier than not?

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Originally Posted by Katherine Derbyshire View Post
This is getting ridiculous. It's McDonald's. No, it isn't ideal, but it's hardly toxic sludge.

A McDonald's cheeseburger contains bioavailable fat, protein, and carbs. These will be used by the body in the exact same way as the fat, protein, and carbs in a grass-fed burger with aged artisan cheddar on a homemade whole wheat roll.

Eating McDonald's for a month will not kill you, will probably not make you sick if you're in reasonable health to begin with, and can certainly support PRs if you make sure to get adequate calories.

Barring true malnutrition or food allergies, the effects of a bad diet appear over years and decades, not weeks.

Katherine
I generally agree, but I also disagree.

The body has an EXCEPTIONAL and I really do mean that capacity for mitigating damage.

People can get burned over 90% of their body and survive. It's astounding.

That said is there a reason to abuse it?

I mean people eat french fries which are deep fried in vegetable oils. As you know vegetable oils are a decently high percentage of polyunsaturated fatty acids, particularly omega 6s. Do you really want to contribute to a systemical inflammatory state, plus the amount of trans fats that you get from deep frying O6 rich oils at super high temperatures which are clearly atherogenic?

Trans fats are up near smoking in how bad they are for the body.

And that's just fries.


I think everything needs to be in perspective. Staying up late, or having job stress contributes negatively probably nearly as much as eating crappy food does.

The less negative things that we do to our bodies the better.

Does that mean we can't "enjoy" junk foods once in a while? Nah,... but try to keep it to a minimum.

All about the perspective... (which I am sure of you would agree since you're one of the more reasonable people on this board.... I just happened to use your post ).
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Old 07-22-2011, 05:22 PM   #113
Michael Dowling
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Re: Whole Grain? Is it healthier than not?

So I said paleo man didn't need to worry about living past 40 and you quote a study that studied a couple hundred modern hunter and gatherers? Not exactly apples to apples...

Skeleton studies of Paleolithic man indicate a lifespan of about 35 years. Look you eat paleo that's great but to pretend modern hunter and gatherers do not benefit from modern medicine is not accurate, also to pretend your diet as a western paleo eater mimics the diet of hunting and gathering tribes is also inaccurate.

Most hunter and gatherer tribes eat light amounts of lean wild game, not bacon by the fistfulls and 2 grams of protein per lb of bw. The modern western paleo diet most people here follow is not typically anything like modern hunter and gatherer tribes or paleo man. The type of paleo eating a lot do will catch up to them.
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Old 07-22-2011, 06:10 PM   #114
Michael Dowling
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Re: Whole Grain? Is it healthier than not?

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Trans fats are up near smoking in how bad they are for the body.

And that's just fries.

).
Imagine if people smoked the French fries how bad that would be?
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Old 07-22-2011, 11:29 PM   #115
Brandon Sligh
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Re: Whole Grain? Is it healthier than not?

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Originally Posted by Katherine Derbyshire View Post
This is getting ridiculous. It's McDonald's. No, it isn't ideal, but it's hardly toxic sludge.

A McDonald's cheeseburger contains bioavailable fat, protein, and carbs. These will be used by the body in the exact same way as the fat, protein, and carbs in a grass-fed burger with aged artisan cheddar on a homemade whole wheat roll.

Eating McDonald's for a month will not kill you, will probably not make you sick if you're in reasonable health to begin with, and can certainly support PRs if you make sure to get adequate calories.

Barring true malnutrition or food allergies, the effects of a bad diet appear over years and decades, not weeks.

Katherine
I do not believe your statement is true at all. The body is not going to use the fat, protein, and carbs the same way from both of these meals. This is like saying eating mcdonalds before a workout will make you feel the same way as a healthier meal. Does this make any sense at all? I think not.
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Old 07-23-2011, 12:06 AM   #116
Katherine Derbyshire
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Re: Whole Grain? Is it healthier than not?

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Originally Posted by Brandon Sligh View Post
I do not believe your statement is true at all. The body is not going to use the fat, protein, and carbs the same way from both of these meals. This is like saying eating mcdonalds before a workout will make you feel the same way as a healthier meal. Does this make any sense at all? I think not.
Yes and no. Yes, obviously the two meals are not the same. If you'd been around here longer, you'd be well aware of my disdain for McDonald's.

But my post was a reaction against the fast food phobia earlier in the thread. McDonald's hamburgers contain ground beef, and fundamentally beef protein is beef protein. The protein in a McDonald's hamburger can build muscle just as effectively as any other. The carbs and fat convert to the same number of calories. It's not an ideal diet for the long term, but it's perfectly capable of supporting athletic performance for the short term of the proposed experiment.

Katherine
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Old 07-23-2011, 08:20 AM   #117
Bill M. Hesse
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Re: Whole Grain? Is it healthier than not?

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Originally Posted by Katherine Derbyshire View Post
Yes and no. Yes, obviously the two meals are not the same. If you'd been around here longer, you'd be well aware of my disdain for McDonald's.

But my post was a reaction against the fast food phobia earlier in the thread. McDonald's hamburgers contain ground beef, and fundamentally beef protein is beef protein. The protein in a McDonald's hamburger can build muscle just as effectively as any other. The carbs and fat convert to the same number of calories. It's not an ideal diet for the long term, but it's perfectly capable of supporting athletic performance for the short term of the proposed experiment.

Katherine
I am dense Katherine and I just have to ask. Is that you in your Avatar?
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Old 07-23-2011, 08:48 AM   #118
Katherine Derbyshire
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Re: Whole Grain? Is it healthier than not?

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I am dense Katherine and I just have to ask. Is that you in your Avatar?
Yes. On the left.

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Old 07-23-2011, 08:56 AM   #119
Shane Skowron
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Re: Whole Grain? Is it healthier than not?

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Originally Posted by Michael Dowling View Post
Most hunter and gatherer tribes eat light amounts of lean wild game, not bacon by the fistfulls and 2 grams of protein per lb of bw. The modern western paleo diet most people here follow is not typically anything like modern hunter and gatherer tribes or paleo man. The type of paleo eating a lot do will catch up to them.
No, that's not correct.

Shows fatty acid analysis of wild ruminants (lots of fat)
http://www.sawellnesscenter.com/nutr...Acid%20PDF.pdf (wfs)

Shows seasonal variation in fat levels in elk:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1....CO;2/abstract (wfs)

Shows how hunter-gatherers would have chosen fatty meat, with saturated fat, and how fat varied over season:
http://www.gnolls.org/715/when-the-c...initely-paleo/ (wfs)

I will agree with you that the people who are eating large portions of feedlot beef and pork (especially bacon) and claiming they are being paleo are seriously misinformed.

The truth is that many hunter gatherer clans ate quite a bit of meat both high in fat and in protein. The main difference with today's meat is not the amount of fat, but rather the type of fat. And eating too much of the wrong type of fat is what causes serious health problems.

Of course to say that this is true of all hunter gatherer tribes would also be incorrect. I think it's the tribes in cold weather areas (such as North America, Northern Europe, and Asia) that would be most likely to eat this kind of diet. Some of them managed to thrive on eating nothing but meat (Inuit). (As an aside, unfortunately the Inuit today are eating increase levels of junk food and so they are seeing a rise in obesity. See: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21158962 wfs )

However what may have worked for the Inuit would probably not work for hunter-gatherers of Africa. They ate primarily a plant-based diet despite the fact that they were in an area with plenty of wild animals they could have hunted. (http://www.ajcn.org/content/71/3/665.full.pdf+html wfs)


So I think what I'm trying to point out here is that there is no one hunter-gatherer diet, so to say that you should eat primarily these foods because paleo man ate them is not accurate. What we can see across all the studies, though, is that people who ate foods that were only minimally to moderately processed, high in nutrients, and from the wild (therefore have an appropriate distribution of omega-6 to omega-3) tend to be healthier.

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Old 07-23-2011, 02:15 PM   #120
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Re: Whole Grain? Is it healthier than not?

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Originally Posted by Katherine Derbyshire View Post
Yes and no. Yes, obviously the two meals are not the same. If you'd been around here longer, you'd be well aware of my disdain for McDonald's.

But my post was a reaction against the fast food phobia earlier in the thread. McDonald's hamburgers contain ground beef, and fundamentally beef protein is beef protein. The protein in a McDonald's hamburger can build muscle just as effectively as any other. The carbs and fat convert to the same number of calories. It's not an ideal diet for the long term, but it's perfectly capable of supporting athletic performance for the short term of the proposed experiment.

Katherine
As for short term, referring to the track and field workouts I do, it is not capable of supporting the amount of stress I put on my body on a daily basis. Nine times out of ten I am going to cramp up at practice, not feel good, throw up, etc if it is a hard workout. Maybe its capable of supporting some kind of other athletic performance but not what I do. There is going to be some uneasiness involved.
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