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Old 06-20-2011, 10:59 AM   #41
Katherine Derbyshire
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Re: Any point to bench press instead of military press?

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Originally Posted by Peter Bernardin View Post
I made a post in the last page where I explained a little bit why overhead pushing is used in situations that look like bench press, imagine yourself pushing a fridge, there is very little horizontal pushing strength, the power comes from your legs and core with overhead press strength (because you're leaning forward).
I don't care how much I lean forward, any sort of horizontal push is always going to be closer to the bench press plane than the overhead press plane. I was talking about your specific example of getting trapped under heavy things, though: it only has to happen once for inadequate bench press strength to ruin your day.

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Also, I'm curious why I should be able to bench press more than I can dip? I mean, most people can leg press more than they can squat, does that make leg press a better exercise? I know that's an extreme scenario, but you get my point. Dip takes core balance and other goodies just like press and squat, pull ups, etc that you just don't get from bench press.
If you don't think bench pressing engages the core, you need to bench more.

Dips are a great exercise, and no one is saying you shouldn't do them. The point is that if your dips are stronger than your bench, that indicates that your bench press is extremely weak and you should spend more time fixing it and less time arguing about whether it's important.

Katherine
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Old 06-20-2011, 04:20 PM   #42
Eric Montgomery
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Re: Any point to bench press instead of military press?

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Originally Posted by Peter Bernardin View Post
I made a post in the last page where I explained a little bit why overhead pushing is used in situations that look like bench press, imagine yourself pushing a fridge, there is very little horizontal pushing strength, the power comes from your legs and core with overhead press strength (because you're leaning forward).

Also, I'm curious why I should be able to bench press more than I can dip? I mean, most people can leg press more than they can squat, does that make leg press a better exercise? I know that's an extreme scenario, but you get my point. Dip takes core balance and other goodies just like press and squat, pull ups, etc that you just don't get from bench press.
Bench to dips is a poor comparison...saying you can dip bodyweight because you can do a few without any additional load is like saying you can bench bodyweight because you can do a few pushups. It's not a direct correlation. If I can do 100 pushups does that mean I can bench my bodyweight 100 times? Nope, not even close.

And your example about pushing a fridge is another poor example--by that logic the press is a useless exercise, because if you were in a real-life situation trying to get something heavy overhead you wouldn't try to do a strict press with it. You'd do a push press or a push jerk.

The bench press is good at getting the largest muscles in your upper body stronger and will make you better at pushups and other presses. So tell me again why you wouldn't want to get stronger at it?

This sounds like one of Katherine's examples of "I'm not good at a given movement, so rather than getting better at it I'm going to try to rationalize my way out of it by arguing that it's not a 'functional' movement."
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Old 02-01-2012, 12:39 PM   #43
Jesse Nunley
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Re: Any point to bench press instead of military press?

Also with all the large muscle groups used in the bench and being new to it, you should be able to increase your strength at it quickly.

Increasing a 1RM by 5lbs every week isnt unreasonable at all untill you get to a certain point. I increased my 1RM by about 60 lbs in 3 months and i had a friend lifting with me who increased his by 100lbs in under 3 months. He was a 330lb guy who starting out could only bench 235. Ive also had another friend who was able to increase is bench by 5lbs a week for a few months.

Point is, if you cant do your body weight start benching 2 or 3 times a week and you should be able to within a few months.
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Old 02-01-2012, 10:17 PM   #44
Matt Rexin
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Re: Any point to bench press instead of military press?

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If you don't think bench pressing engages the core, you need to bench more.

Dips are a great exercise, and no one is saying you shouldn't do them. The point is that if your dips are stronger than your bench, that indicates that your bench press is extremely weak and you should spend more time fixing it and less time arguing about whether it's important.

Katherine
Sorry Katherine, but this made me laugh in a good way. I think its awesome that a woman is admonishing a guy to bench more.

For the OP, I don't see what is so hard about following a program as written, it seems to be the bane of every internet forum on exercise. Bench pressing, as previously said, is a full body exercise if it is done properly.

How this relates to dips is that dips do not recruit the lower body to allow the lift to be completed, whereas in the bench they stabilize the body and allow it to move heavier loads than dips.
So if your dips are greater or equal to your bench, this shows that there needs to be improvement to the strength and/or the technique performed in the bench press.
Both dips and bench are great exercises, but if a program calls for bench press, then subbing something else in that is not explicitly outlined as a "substitute" makes it no longer the program.

Last edited by Matt Rexin : 02-01-2012 at 10:26 PM.
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Old 02-01-2012, 10:33 PM   #45
Jordie Macinnes
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Re: Any point to bench press instead of military press?

If you look at the strength anatomy of a bench press vs. a dip, it is two very different exercises. In a true bench press, with proper form, you utilize the entire upper skeletal muscle structure. Your back, traps and biceps help stabilize the weight. Your core help with balance on the bench and your shoulders, triceps and chest push the weight up.

In a dip, depending on your body angle in relation to the dip bar removes the stabilization required by your back. Depending on the angle you can change your focus from being chest to being triceps.

Finally in a dip, you are at risk of putting your shoulders in a compromising angle, especially if you add a dip belt with significant weight.

In strength training always start with the basics. Get the form. Practice full range and start slowly. Going heavy fast only slows your progress down. You don't build a house from the roof first. A dip is an intermediate - advanced movement that requires great shoulder stability and strength in the tendons and connective tissues.
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Old 02-01-2012, 10:44 PM   #46
Jordie Macinnes
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Re: Any point to bench press instead of military press?

Finally in answer to the question of bench press instead of military press. Again two very different and distinct exercises. If you are looking for a direct application to Crossfit there isn't a simple answer.

A military press is designed to strengthen the shoulders in the range of motion in pushing over your head. If done properly and in a full range of motion, it can increase your strength in push press, thruster and clean and press. If can also increase your stability in snatches and overhead squats.

Bench press is designed to strengthen the chest in the range of motion in pushing away from your chest. If done properly and in a full range of motion, it can also increase your strength in push press, but also can increase the explosiveness of your burpee's, your pushups and wall ball shots. One side effect of a good bench press is an increase in bicep strength.

So as one other post said, why attempt to substitute one exercise with another. Do them both and grow my friend in strength, stamina and win!
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Old 02-08-2012, 12:36 PM   #47
Steven Braden
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Re: Any point to bench press instead of military press?

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Originally Posted by Peter Bernardin View Post
Well I guess my goal would be to maximize my gains according to my genetics (similar to the paleo diet's philosophy). In other words, if I were born in 30,000 BC, whatever exercise I would do to get food, survive, etc I would like to repeat here in 2011. That way my body fits its genetic profile - and that's healthy. I just can't really picture a situation a situation that mimics a bench press, that occurs often at least.
This is the year 2012 not 30,000bc. Most of us don't have to hunt and gather food so setting your fitness goals for that would be very impractical. Unless youlan on getting lost in the woods a lot. I suggest setting your goals on something that is going to help you in YOUR daily life (that will be different for everyone).
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Old 02-08-2012, 05:39 PM   #48
Kevin Carey
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Re: Any point to bench press instead of military press?

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Originally Posted by Jordie Macinnes View Post
Bench press is designed to strengthen the chest in the range of motion in pushing away from your chest.
The chest shouldn't be a big player in your bench press. The triceps are the prime mover, with delts helping and a lot of back to stay in proper position. If you are involving a lot of chest, you-
- are on your way to shoulder injury
- need to bring your grip and/or elbows in
- probably don't have a tight upper back
- are missing a lot of carry over to other lifts (as the chest is less important that the triceps to other lifts)

I sort of look at pec involvement in the bench as quad involvement in the back squat- you use them a bit, and they definitely help, but primary use of them indicates an imbalance or poor form.
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Old 02-08-2012, 05:59 PM   #49
Donald Lee
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Re: Any point to bench press instead of military press?

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Originally Posted by Kevin Carey View Post
The chest shouldn't be a big player in your bench press. The triceps are the prime mover, with delts helping and a lot of back to stay in proper position. If you are involving a lot of chest, you-
- are on your way to shoulder injury
- need to bring your grip and/or elbows in
- probably don't have a tight upper back
- are missing a lot of carry over to other lifts (as the chest is less important that the triceps to other lifts)

I sort of look at pec involvement in the bench as quad involvement in the back squat- you use them a bit, and they definitely help, but primary use of them indicates an imbalance or poor form.
Chest is primarily involved in the bottom end ROM, and triceps are primarily involved in the top end ROM. Depending on grip width, arch, and technique (J-hook vs. straight), the emphasis can be changed, including adding more involvement of delts. For raw lifters, usually bottom end ROM needs more work.
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Old 02-08-2012, 06:22 PM   #50
Kevin Carey
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Re: Any point to bench press instead of military press?

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Originally Posted by Donald Lee View Post
Chest is primarily involved in the bottom end ROM, and triceps are primarily involved in the top end ROM. Depending on grip width, arch, and technique (J-hook vs. straight), the emphasis can be changed, including adding more involvement of delts. For raw lifters, usually bottom end ROM needs more work.
The delts are involved in the bottom of the lift, if the elbows are close to the body, the chest CANNOT offer much leverage against the humerus- the front delts do. Put your arm down by your side, then raise it straight out in front of you- that's the motion the humerus takes in a bench press- and it is primarily delt. Regardless of whether you press the bar straight, or in an arc- the touch is still the same point.

Floor presses help lift off strength- they train the delts and tris.

If you were a machine programmed primarily to extend at the elbow, and secondarily extend at the shoulder (which is a delt function) to keep the bar moving in a vertical plane- you would have a perfect bench, given that your back is tight enough to support the process.

The chest lends itself to rotation, not extension.
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