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Old 06-15-2013, 02:14 PM   #31
Frank E Morel
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Re: Against the Current

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Originally Posted by Phil Washlow View Post
Some people have run off ketones for years. Some studies have shown that the brain functions better running on ketones and that it aids in memory.

Bill, how did you get "sugar is what your body runs off" from that article?

"The first step in lipid metabolism is the hydrolysis of the lipid in the cytoplasm to produce glycerol and fatty acids.

Since glycerol is a three carbon alcohol, it is metabolized quite readily into an intermediate in glycolysis, dihydroxyacetone phosphate. The last reaction is readily reversible if glycerol is needed for the synthesis of a lipid.

The hydroxyacetone, obtained from glycerol is metabolized into one of two possible compounds. Dihydroxyacetone may be converted into pyruvic acid through the glycolysis pathway to make energy.

In addition, the dihydroxyacetone may also be used in gluconeogenesis to make glucose-6-phosphate for glucose to the blood or glycogen depending upon what is required at that time.

Fatty acids are oxidized to acetyl CoA in the mitochondria using the fatty acid spiral. The acetyl CoA is then ultimately converted into ATP, CO2, and H2O using the citric acid cycle and the electron transport chain."
I think you need to talk to any diabetic that has experienced dka and ask how sick they got.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK22414/. Wfs.

After several weeks of starvation, ketone bodies become the major fuel of the brain. Acetoacetate is activated by the transfer of CoA from succinyl CoA to give acetoacetyl CoA (Figure 30.18). Cleavage by thiolase then yields two molecules of acetyl CoA, which enter the citric acid cycle. In essence, ketone bodies are equivalents of fatty acids that can pass through the blood-brain barrier. Only 40 g of glucose is then needed per day for the brain, compared with about 120 g in the first day of starvation. The effective conversion of fatty acids into ketone bodies by the liver and their use by the brain markedly diminishes the need for glucose. Hence, less muscle is degraded than in the first days of starvation. The breakdown of 20 g of muscle daily compared with 75 g early in starvation is most important for survival. A person's survival time is mainly determined by the size of the triacylglycerol depot.

Entry of Ketone Bodies Into the Citric Acid Cycle.
What happens after depletion of the triacylglycerol stores? The only source of fuel that remains is proteins. Protein degradation accelerates, and death inevitably results from a loss of heart, liver, or kidney function.

Maybe those ppl your referring to are bouncing in and out ketosis for an extended time, Like a cyclic ketogenic diet. But a prolonged keto state,
Brain fog turns to coma easily.

Carb nite. Does this. Your keto for 6 days, Backload and near instantly your out of it. It doesn't take much carbs to do that.

The only extend ppl that I know that stay in a keto state are the epileptic children that have such large numbers of daily seizures that, their medication approach or near breech the safety levels, Going on the keto diet helps reduce the number of convulsions and possible reduce of medication levels.
Even those ppl are brought out keto for a while.
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Old 06-15-2013, 03:17 PM   #32
Phil Washlow
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Re: Against the Current

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Originally Posted by Frank E Morel View Post
I think you need to talk to any diabetic that has experienced dka and ask how sick they got.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK22414/. Wfs.

After several weeks of starvation, ketone bodies become the major fuel of the brain. Acetoacetate is activated by the transfer of CoA from succinyl CoA to give acetoacetyl CoA (Figure 30.18). Cleavage by thiolase then yields two molecules of acetyl CoA, which enter the citric acid cycle. In essence, ketone bodies are equivalents of fatty acids that can pass through the blood-brain barrier. Only 40 g of glucose is then needed per day for the brain, compared with about 120 g in the first day of starvation. The effective conversion of fatty acids into ketone bodies by the liver and their use by the brain markedly diminishes the need for glucose. Hence, less muscle is degraded than in the first days of starvation. The breakdown of 20 g of muscle daily compared with 75 g early in starvation is most important for survival. A person's survival time is mainly determined by the size of the triacylglycerol depot.

Entry of Ketone Bodies Into the Citric Acid Cycle.
What happens after depletion of the triacylglycerol stores? The only source of fuel that remains is proteins. Protein degradation accelerates, and death inevitably results from a loss of heart, liver, or kidney function.

Maybe those ppl your referring to are bouncing in and out ketosis for an extended time, Like a cyclic ketogenic diet. But a prolonged keto state,
Brain fog turns to coma easily.

Carb nite. Does this. Your keto for 6 days, Backload and near instantly your out of it. It doesn't take much carbs to do that.

The only extend ppl that I know that stay in a keto state are the epileptic children that have such large numbers of daily seizures that, their medication approach or near breech the safety levels, Going on the keto diet helps reduce the number of convulsions and possible reduce of medication levels.
Even those ppl are brought out keto for a while.
Thanks for bringing that up. You are absolutely correct about the dangers of diabetic ketogenic adaptation. The lack of insulin causes the ketone levels to go out of control and the body, due to being in starvation mode, breaks down excess protein. What I am referring to is nutritional ketosis.
http://eatingacademy.com/nutrition/is-ketosis-dangerous (wfs)

Darryl, are you asking me for evidence that a diet containing 675g of csrbs is dangerous and will cause metabolic syndrome?
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Old 06-16-2013, 09:10 AM   #33
Darryl Shaw
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Re: Against the Current

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Originally Posted by Phil Washlow View Post
Darryl, are you asking me for evidence that a diet containing 675g of csrbs is dangerous and will cause metabolic syndrome?
I'm asking for evidence that the American Dietetic Association, Dietitians of Canada, American College of Sports Medicine, International Olympic Committee, Australian Institute of Sport, International Association of Athletics Federations, and the British Dietetic Association are all wrong in recommending that athletes consume 6-10g of carbohydrate per kg of bodyweight per day depending on daily energy expenditure, type of sport, sex, and environmental conditions.
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Old 06-17-2013, 06:53 AM   #34
Phil Washlow
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Re: Against the Current

We have already established that consumption of carbohydrates at that level can not be done through vegetables or any other low glycemic foods. With that being established here are a couple studies/articles about the dangers of high glycemic loads.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21978979
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2824150/
http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...against-cardio

Insulin
http://journal.crossfit.com/2010/04/...production.tpl

Dangers of Sugar
http://eatingacademy.com/nutrition/is-sugar-toxic

How main stream nutritionists came to believe what they do
http://vimeo.com/45485034 (lecture with powerpoint slideshow)

*Journal article may contain swearing (not sure) the rest of the links are wfs
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Old 06-17-2013, 09:16 AM   #35
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Re: Against the Current

Journal article should not have swearing lol. Citing eating academy isn't evidence to say the least.
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Old 06-17-2013, 09:27 AM   #36
Phil Washlow
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Re: Against the Current

Eating Academy was just to inform about the dangers of sugar. The studies before were to show the dangers of any high glycemic load (excess carb consumption).
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Old 06-17-2013, 10:53 AM   #37
Joe Wright
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Re: Against the Current

Hi Phil,
I was curious about the sources you posted and took a look. It seems the first is an abstract only. Was there full text I missed?

The second didn't seem to focus on the consumption of carbs as the object of study; its focus seemed more to be about risk factors for heart disease.

The OP's question was about weight loss. Is there something in that article pertaining to carbs and weight loss I'm missing?
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Old 06-17-2013, 11:18 AM   #38
Phil Washlow
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Re: Against the Current

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Originally Posted by Joe Wright View Post
Hi Phil,
I was curious about the sources you posted and took a look. It seems the first is an abstract only. Was there full text I missed?

The second didn't seem to focus on the consumption of carbs as the object of study; its focus seemed more to be about risk factors for heart disease.

The OP's question was about weight loss. Is there something in that article pertaining to carbs and weight loss I'm missing?
The articles I posted were meant as an indication of a link between high glycemic consumption and heart disease. I addressed my advice/response to the OPs question of fat loss in an earlier post. I proposed a high fat, moderate protein, low carb diet with the possible inclusion of intermittent fasting and bulletproof coffee. Sorry if our discussion has gotten too off topic and this thread was seemingly highjacked.
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Old 06-17-2013, 11:27 AM   #39
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Re: Against the Current

Phil, I think what you are failing to realize (or maybe you do) is the prescription Darryl posted is aimed at athletes. Considering that, what equates to best performance and what equates to best health aren't usually in the same camp after a certain point. Sure, you will probably have to have some sugar to eat 600+g's of carbs. Conversely, one is going to increase the amount of saturated fat they take in if they are eating 50% or greater of their diet in fat. Just as you post abstracts linking whatever it is they show, I can find studies that show correlation between saturated fat hazards as well as overeating fat being linked to weight gain.

You routinely throw the baby out of the bathwater and insinuate carbohydrates other than vegetables have some kind of inherent health killing properties in the face of tons of evidence that they don't. Fruit intake in many hunter-gatherer groups in tropical climates is high and it doesn't seem to be killing them. Darryl eats a very high carb diet and has excellent blood markers. Vegan whole food diets low in saturated fats and rich in whole foods have reversed diabetes and heart disease in one Cleveland Clinic Dr.'s patients. Perhaps you ought to consider that the 200-300g of carbohydrates that many active people should be eating to thrive is not unhealthy given they source their carbohydrates appropriately.

If sweet things killed us we would slowly weed it out of our genes. The fact is our environment we exist in no longer jives with our desire for sweet tooth for fruits and the such but that doesn't mean annex fruit and tubers because the average American eats too much and consumes too much sugar. Thus, we must be smart and well informed and limit these things in our regular diet. This is the same as our desire for fatty things. Like it or not, there is plenty of evidence out there on saturated fats causing dysfunction in the body's processes. The key is to understand these things don't happen in a box and other mechanisms we don't understand can be at play as well.

An aside, I can't help but notice your repeated use of the Glycemic Index consistently to disparage carbohydrates as bad. This scale is debatable in and of itself and should not be considered proof of a food's goodness or badness.

My parting words before I cease participation in this conversation:

Look critically at everything you hear and read. Guys like Taubes paint a pretty picture with graphs and fringe evidence. It is easy for them put enough graphs together to convince you they are absolutely right. I know because I used to agree with him and people like this non-practicing M.D. at Eating Academy. One day I was looking at some information produced by the FDA and I made a realization. Americans are fat because they eat too much, are sedentary, and consume entirely too much sugar and the wrong kinds of fat. There isn't a big mystery about it. The government isn't hiding anything from us concerning this. The evidence is there from multiple other sources too.

People in the diet industry make money on selling ideas. It is easy to be convinced. I am always skeptical of people who aren't doing original research and condemning their peers. Spending the day on pubmed is informative, but not research.
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Old 06-17-2013, 11:51 AM   #40
Phil Washlow
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Re: Against the Current

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Originally Posted by Bill M. Hesse View Post
Perhaps you ought to consider that the 200-300g of carbohydrates that many active people should be eating to thrive is not unhealthy given they source their carbohydrates appropriately.
Since we agree that this conversation has become quite pointless, I will only respond to this sentence. I COMPLETELY agree with you on this, 2-300g is fine for an active person. My ultra low carb advice was based on the OPs desire for fat loss, which I believe my approach is a safe and very effective way to achieve this. My issue came from the idea of 600g+ as I believe this is dangerous.
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