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Fitness Theory and Practice. CrossFit's rationale & foundations. Who is fit? What is fitness?

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Old 12-23-2008, 09:23 PM   #11
Jeff Martin
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Re: 20 rep squats, and deads, and bench, and....

Matt
You are absolutely wrong. Last year I found myself in Mike Provosts' position. serious back injury, couldn't pick 200#'s up without back spasms. Started in exactly the same spot with 135. Today I don't know what my 1 rep max is but I pulled 405 x 3 last week (bdywt 170, 49 years old) and 335 x 15. Back squatted 335 x 1, and 245 x 15.

It works. Should pretty much end the discussion.
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Old 12-23-2008, 09:31 PM   #12
Jacob Cloud
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Re: 20 rep squats, and deads, and bench, and....

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Matt
You are absolutely wrong. Last year I found myself in Mike Provosts' position. serious back injury, couldn't pick 200#'s up without back spasms. Started in exactly the same spot with 135. Today I don't know what my 1 rep max is but I pulled 405 x 3 last week (bdywt 170, 49 years old) and 335 x 15. Back squatted 335 x 1, and 245 x 15.

It works. Should pretty much end the discussion.
There's a big difference between doing 20 reps in a set and what is commonly understood as "20 rep squats" or "breathing squats." Attempting to do breathing bench, breathing cleans, etc...I would not advise this.
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Old 12-23-2008, 09:53 PM   #13
Jeff Martin
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Re: 20 rep squats, and deads, and bench, and....

I recently completed "Grace" at bodyweight+ 5 pounds. It was definitely worthwhile. Never tried "breathing bench presses" so can't speak to it.

When asking about this kind of training you have to have a specific goal. Mine was to be better at life/CrossFit. At 170#'s and 49 years old I have a sub 4:00 Diane, sub 2:40 Fran. Closing on 2.5 X bodyweight Deadlift, 2 X bodyweight Back squat, and bodyweight + shoulder press. 20 rep sets were a big part of this. But I'm sure these numbers are fairly common for 50 year old guys.
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Old 12-23-2008, 10:21 PM   #14
Jacob Cloud
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Re: 20 rep squats, and deads, and bench, and....

Jeff, I don't think anyone is discounting your personal achievements, or trying to make this personal at all. Congrats, btw. I hope to be as strong and fit as you when I'm your age.

But I think it's important to note the difference between the advantages of a Super Squat/20 rep/breathing program and just doing high rep sets of compound exercises. As a rare "Crossfit Coach" I'm sure you would take into consideration the OPs goals when designing a program. His posted program seems to be based on the legendary reading/storytelling associated with 20 rep squats, not based on actual experience or geared towards specific goals.

Look, I'm probably one of the biggest fans of 20 rep squats out there. I posted my own 315x20 effort a couple weeks back in the hopes of getting more people to try it, because I seriously believe every iron-lover can benefit from it in certain doses. But more isn't always better - and I think the training program posted up top has lots of room for improvement, but goals need to be considered when giving advice. Also, safety - I would not advise anyone to try and take their 10RM bench and attempt 20 reps. And that, to me, is a "20 rep set," and I believe what this thread was based on.

What you and Mike are talking about - high rep deads to fix back issues - is extremely similar to Rip's prescribed injury workout. And it works very well for that - I don't think anyone is arguing that. But we're going off the OPs post, and he doesn't mention injuries as a factor in designing his routine.
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Old 12-23-2008, 10:43 PM   #15
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Re: 20 rep squats, and deads, and bench, and....

Jacob,
I understand, and hope that you are as fit as me when you are my age.
The bench is outside of my experience (when I was in my 20's I weighed 210 and Benched 350), but I think that many people fail in pursuit of their goals, simply because they fail to question the current accepted wisdom. Maybe high rep bench is worthwhile. I don't know. Might be fun to find out, but I'm not really interested enough in the bench to do any work on it. But high rep deads, squats and shoulder presses have proven productive for me.

If it was my singular experience, I wouldn't comment here. One person making good gains is interesting, but not worth pursuing until it is duplicated....I have one young men in my gym (170 #'er) who just pulled 505 on the deadlift. 3 more working with us that are knocking on the door. All are using the high rep sets as part of their programming.

We program in high rep "heavy" oly lifts as matter of course, often with in a heavy metcon as well. Last week we did a five rounder with hill sprints and body weight front squats.

Question everything, experiment always.
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Old 12-24-2008, 01:21 AM   #16
Gavin Harrison
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Re: 20 rep squats, and deads, and bench, and....

I think certain permutations of this would work for: (all wfs unless noted)

1) Squats (obviously, super squats, etc...)
2) Deads (http://www.brookskubik.com/?p=129)
3) Clean+Jerk (http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_...l_training&cr=) (page 4, t-nation... minimally clad women, supplement advertisements, etc)

All of these programs feed off of the fact that these lifts recruit A LOT of muscles in your entire body, causing nice hormonal things.. The Deadlift version only has you lifting once a week or so.. I doubt you could get the same effect from a Bench or Press program. Super Squat program has you do bench, press and rows as assistance work anyway.

Dan Jon's one lift a day might be of interest to you. Also, the much discredited here, 80/20 Powerlifting by Pavel.
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Old 12-24-2008, 08:20 AM   #17
Kurt A Gross
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Re: 20 rep squats, and deads, and bench, and....

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Dan Jon's one lift a day might be of interest to you. Also, the much discredited here, 80/20 Powerlifting by Pavel.
That's sort of what I was thinking when I asked about doing something like this. But if It's a bad idea, I'll keep doing what I do now. I mountainbike, BTW, so I was thinking the 20 rep squats might help that now in the offseason. Squatting heavy more than once per week during biking season definitely HURTS my mountainbiking, as It seems I need at least 3 days, maybe 4, to fully recover from a 5x5. If I bike within 2 days of squatting, I'm terrible. During warmer months, we bike maybe 4 days a week, so my legs never recover. My biking improves only if I drop the squats altogether.
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Old 12-24-2008, 08:32 AM   #18
Jamie J. Skibicki
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Re: 20 rep squats, and deads, and bench, and....

THere is a big difference between doing 20 squats and doing 20 breathing squats. If you are doing a weight you can knock off like 20 pushups, you will not get the training effect of a 20 rep squat program.

If the 1 set of what you are doing is everything you have, then you will see the results (size, strength and some endurance). I think the squat, clean and deadlift are better canidates for this since they use the most muscle, but doing press along with this should increase the effect since the squat, deadlift and clean leave the chest mostly untouched and is more muscle than may be activated to help increase hormonal production.

And questioning the validity and succes of the 20 rep squat program is like questioning the validity and succes of CF. It all comes down to your goals.
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Old 12-24-2008, 02:39 PM   #19
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Re: 20 rep squats, and deads, and bench, and....

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Originally Posted by Kurt A Gross View Post
That's sort of what I was thinking when I asked about doing something like this. But if It's a bad idea, I'll keep doing what I do now. I mountainbike, BTW, so I was thinking the 20 rep squats might help that now in the offseason. Squatting heavy more than once per week during biking season definitely HURTS my mountainbiking, as It seems I need at least 3 days, maybe 4, to fully recover from a 5x5. If I bike within 2 days of squatting, I'm terrible. During warmer months, we bike maybe 4 days a week, so my legs never recover. My biking improves only if I drop the squats altogether.
I wasn't trying to turn you off of this sort of idea, it certainly works... both the one lift a day, and the 80/20 powerlifting program by Pavel. I just think lifts besides those three (Squat/Dead/C+J) don't work as well in the 20 rep range. Bench press benefits from lower rep schemes, and presses with slightly lower rep schemes and more frequency. Why not try out the OLAD now, which seems to be your off season?
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Old 12-24-2008, 06:20 PM   #20
Matt Thomas
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Re: 20 rep squats, and deads, and bench, and....

I'd like to hear more specifics about your experience of course Jeff. And I wasn't trying to say a rep range of 20 is good for nothing. I'm just going off of what I understand the 20 rep squat to be and, considering that, I don't think it's even possible to create that kind of effect or stress with other lifts. Even if the OPs goal were to be muscular endurance I didn't think it would be much use because if he's benching, or pressing, or whatever, a weight he can handle for 20 reps, he's only doing it for 1 set. I assume this because that's what I understand the 20 rep squat template to be. That's not a lot of volume. If he were doing multiple sets of 20 that might have a place I suppose...

Again, I'd like to here about your experience more Jeff, but I can't imagine what 1 set of 1 exercise for 20 reps would accomplish that couldn't be better accomplished in a different way.

Oh and just in case I confused anyone. I don't question the validity of the 20 rep squat program. Not at all. It is absolutely devastating . I was just questioning the validity of being able to repeat that sort of stress with other exercises.

Last edited by Matt Thomas : 12-24-2008 at 06:24 PM.
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