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Old 11-20-2008, 07:20 AM   #411
Leonid Soubbotine
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Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit

Tom - you're a smart man! I'll be doing just that.
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Old 11-20-2008, 07:40 AM   #412
Christian Mason
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Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit

I have to disagree here.

I have a ton of respect for Rob, but both he and Coach are responding with Ad Hominem attacks on Phil G, who is just pointing out that further scientific verification would be useful. Attacking the messenger seriously damages your credibility.

To be clear, it's my understanding that Phil is an advocate of Crossfit, I certainly am. I'm also convinced that what Rob Wolf says is true - the brains behind Crossfit have been tweaking their approach for years, with thousands of points of data.


None of this changes the fact, that for it to be accepted in a rigorous academic setting, we need to see carefully controlled studies, performed by people not directly associate with the community.

There seems to be a community attitude here of "burn the witch!" when someone questions the dogma. When I first decided to start eating paleo I read what I could get my hands on about it, especially the effects of grains.

I came across a thread here where someone, who was practicing the paleo diet, asked Rob Wolf about scientific studies supporting the harmful effects of grains, and the response was much the same "you don't get it", "try it for yourself", "how dare you question Rob, this is why he doesn't come here", etc... The guy responded that he HAD tried and WAS personally convinced, but wanted to see some of the science behind it.


Just to be clear:
I am an advocate of both Crossfit, and the Paleo diet. I've had good results with both. I strongly suspect that when there are some strictly controlled, publicly accepted studies of both are published in peer reviewed journals the community will look at them and say "I told you so".

That doesn't change the fact that we should still do the studies.
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Old 11-20-2008, 08:14 AM   #413
David Wood
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Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit

Guys, if this thread does continue (and it seems to have become possibly self-aware and is now attempting self-determination), I'm going to request that we all pay attention to the rhetorical "tone" we are using.

Phil has been stubborn, but not (as far as I can tell) nasty or particularly disrespectful (maybe sarcastic here and there). Everyone else has also stayed within acceptable boundaries, but maybe a little closer to the edge (exasperation will do that to you).

As you start to post, please remember this element of the AUP:

"We require a high level of respect to be shown at all times to other users of the board. "

Thanks in advance,
Dave
 
Old 11-20-2008, 08:45 AM   #414
Kevin B. Sandberg
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Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Wolf View Post
Chris, you are a genius...Phil, I think you are loosing your direction.


Nein, Schizen, and that is called the WOD. OR a Olifting meet...or whatever you want to test. Phil, you are trying to impose a reductionist approach to something which is vastly complex...complex to a degree that outcome based science and experimentation is what works best. this is what bedeviled food research...its the three body problem in calculus...tweak one variable, change all other variables. The most expedient way to solve this problem of performance is stopwatch, a means of measuring distance and a clip-board to record the above information in the form of RESULTS. Someone may in fact cut thier MS or Phd. teeth on some of this at some point. At present YOU are the only one who appears to want to stop the whole program so we can prove the obvious. ALSO...and I will address this more later, you keep saying that this focused, reductionist analysis will yield great insights into how to build better programs and by extension better performers. DO IT. All eyes are on you amigo...field a team for the crossfit games. I'll personally pay you $5K if you do it. Put up or shut up. .
Rob, I think your discourse on the dangers of a reductionist approach is spot on, for what my opinion is worth. Specialization in the health sciences has become largely counter-productive and often down right dangerous. Nutrition is the obvious example. Thanks for articulating it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian Mason View Post
I have to disagree here.

I have a ton of respect for Rob, but both he and Coach are responding with Ad Hominem attacks on Phil G, who is just pointing out that further scientific verification would be useful. Attacking the messenger seriously damages your credibility.

To be clear, it's my understanding that Phil is an advocate of Crossfit, I certainly am. I'm also convinced that what Rob Wolf says is true - the brains behind Crossfit have been tweaking their approach for years, with thousands of points of data.


None of this changes the fact, that for it to be accepted in a rigorous academic setting, we need to see carefully controlled studies, performed by people not directly associate with the community.

There seems to be a community attitude here of "burn the witch!" when someone questions the dogma. When I first decided to start eating paleo I read what I could get my hands on about it, especially the effects of grains.

I came across a thread here where someone, who was practicing the paleo diet, asked Rob Wolf about scientific studies supporting the harmful effects of grains, and the response was much the same "you don't get it", "try it for yourself", "how dare you question Rob, this is why he doesn't come here", etc... The guy responded that he HAD tried and WAS personally convinced, but wanted to see some of the science behind it.


Just to be clear:
I am an advocate of both Crossfit, and the Paleo diet. I've had good results with both. I strongly suspect that when there are some strictly controlled, publicly accepted studies of both are published in peer reviewed journals the community will look at them and say "I told you so".

That doesn't change the fact that we should still do the studies.
Dogma in the science community as it pertains to nutrition, health and fitness is what is being challenged by CF and Paleo. Its that current dogma that can suffocate breakthroughs and allow people to ignore obvious success from a different paradigm. There is the danger of "Paralysis by analysis" if one's not careful. In CF, testing and training happen simultaneously. Every workout is a data point which, in my opinion, makes the system very agile at adapting, growing and improving. CF is a perpetual study. Validation from the established scientific authorities is arguably not necessary for growth, success and effectiveness. If you seek that kind of validation, go for it. And I don't mean that as an attack or a challenge, just encouragement. It is an open community. Just don't demand that the people who own CF and run CF seek that validation.

As for the "attacks," I've seen a large volume of thoughtful writing presenting the concepts and facts from different angles. Patience has its limits and I think Rob may have reached his (just guessing, can't speak for him of course). He is human after all.
 
Old 11-20-2008, 08:47 AM   #415
Robert D Taylor Jr
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Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit

It seems that "we'd" be doing the studies for the why and the how. I'm a fitness end user, I just want it to work, the whys and hows are darn near irrelevant to me. I suspect I'm not alone in this, and I don't need a control group to convince me that CF does.
 
Old 11-20-2008, 09:16 AM   #416
Andrew Christopher Woloszyn
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Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit

[quote=Christian Mason;451396]I have to disagree here.

I have a ton of respect for Rob, but both he and Coach are responding with Ad Hominem attacks on Phil G, who is just pointing out that further scientific verification would be useful. Attacking the messenger seriously damages your credibility.


...There seems to be a community attitude here of "burn the witch!" when someone questions the dogma.
QUOTE]

I have to agree with this. The 'burn the witch' comment actually compliments the "pay attention to the rhetorical "tone" we are using" comment on David Wood's post. What started as a nice enough thread rapidly seemed to go downhill.

I often feel that if you question some elements of Crossfit 'gospel' - on what is a discussions board - you'll get properly flamed/accused of trolling which leaves you thinking that you shouldn't bother posting some perfectly legitimate views in the first place.

I actually thought Coach came across a bit patronising in places on his first reply post.

Sadly, having re-read the above sentence, I am left wondering how many people will be offended by what is just an opinion; a thing we're all entitled to have and express. Am I gonna get properly flamed and/or kicked off now? Hope not.

Getting back to the original question of the thread - I thought the article was pretty good.
Viv la Crossfit.
 
Old 11-20-2008, 09:24 AM   #417
Pat McElhone
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Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin Z. Smith View Post
Re scientific research apparently being voodoo:

Because science is a self correcting mechanism, if you see "lies, fabrications and buffoonery" getting peer reviewed, especially in a field you are an expert in, it is your duty to submit a devastating critique and get it peer reviewed and published or at least noticed, instead of letting it slip by or just moaning about things but doing nothing.

Justin
Where is the duty when you see a program actually make people fitter and a dietary approach actually work, but you choose to ignore these observations because it was observed in real life and in real people and not presented in a very poor designed study, humbly submitted to your jounal for your approval (publishing)?
 
Old 11-20-2008, 09:30 AM   #418
Pat McElhone
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Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandon Oto View Post
The black box is awesome for confirming personal results after the fact.

It is of much less value for determining causal mechanisms (which you need if you want to reveal new theoretical avenues, which would suggest further ideas to test), or for validating recommendations to other people (since you don't know how they differ from you or your other boxees).

Conversely, these areas are where controlled experimentation shines.

I wrote an article about this (wfs) that may be helpful. The most relevant bit:
At this point we can not longer say CF works based on a black box model. Off the top of my head, the Canadian Infantry, Marine Force Recon, Naval Special Warfare, Colorado State Police have all done comparisons of the effects of implementing a CF based PT program vs traditional PT program and shown that CF based program produced high fitness levels (as defined by their physical fitness tests) with less injuries.
 
Old 11-20-2008, 09:36 AM   #419
Pat McElhone
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Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phillip Garrisonq View Post
You have to understand the scientific method. Raw data is what is known as observed phenomenom. People do crossfit, stuff happens. Know how, why and where is the science, which invariably leads to better improvement.
Does the scientific method tell you how? Do studies tell you how or why? The vast majority only tell you that results are reproducible. From that we determine that A caused B. Again, the vast majority of exercise phsyiology studies on humans do not tell of the how or the why, just that this may have caused that, but it may be wrong 5% of the time (p<.05). From that, we determine the how and why.
 
Old 11-20-2008, 09:43 AM   #420
Pat McElhone
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Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian Mason View Post
I have to disagree here.

None of this changes the fact, that for it to be accepted in a rigorous academic setting, we need to see carefully controlled studies, performed by people not directly associate with the community.


That doesn't change the fact that we should still do the studies.
Why do we want it accepted in a rigorous academic setting? Is this the same setting not standing up to the American Heart Associating and the American Diabetes Association or the American Dietetic Association and telling them their dietary recommendations of 70% of daily calories from CHO are killing people? Is the same academic setting tell people all they need to be fit is 20min of exercise at 70% of their MHR 3x week to be fit?

These are the people we should seek approval from?

This is my whole problem with the Academic Exercise Community. While they are sitting around curriculum validating each other and disregarding CF because it is based "on scientific" principles or disregarding a low CHO diet, Americans are following their advice and still dying of preventable disease.
 
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