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Old 06-16-2008, 02:45 PM   #31
George Noble
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Re: Rippetoe Squatting

Regarding the high bar vs low bar argument:

The thing that stood out most in Everett's article was that he admits that many weightlifters have weak hamstrings.
("This is why the typical weightlifter
will display great quad and glute development and
comparatively poorly developed hamstrings. This is
simply the nature of the squat positions demanded by
Olympic weightlifting.")
One would think that prevelance of such an imbalance would increase the impetus to squat in a way that strengthens the hamstrings - with the bar low on the back. Unless Everett is denying that strong hamstrings are not useful for weightlifters, which seems odd since both events require pulling from the floor. This links to another issue I have with Everett's article - that he seems to have missed Rip's point regarding what the back squat is actually used for. He argues that it is used to reinforce the clean whereas Rip argues that it is used to develop general strength and is most related to pulling from the floor.

Everett also says that the high bar back squat is used because it removes the core element of the front squat and allows greater leg overload. That's all well and good, but when you are attempting to reinforce a front squat I would think you would want to work you core, since it's no good having strong legs if you don't have a sufficiently strong core to front squat the weight.

Just my humble opinion, and as an aspiring powerlifter I may well be biased against the high bar squat. I certainly have less experience in weightlifting than either coach, given that the extent of my weightlifting experience is the occasional power clean, front or overhead squat.
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Old 06-16-2008, 08:36 PM   #32
Steven Quadros
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Re: Rippetoe Squatting

I looked over Greg's article, and I too was unimpressed by the argument.
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Old 06-16-2008, 10:11 PM   #33
Derek Maffett
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Re: Rippetoe Squatting

I got the article.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Quadros View Post
The point is that the low bar squat is not similar to the upright torso in the high bar or front squat. The low bar squat would be used because it allows one to use more muscle during the lift, creating a stronger lifter.

But not the kind of strength O-lifters need. What use is a bunch of hamstring strength that is not used in the Clean and Jerk or Snatch? That strength would come into use during the pulls, but snatch/clean deadlifts/pulls are also used (as you mentioned yourself) and replacing the high-bar squat with the low-bar squat could be seen as strengthening the pull off the floor at the expense of strengthening the Olympic squat, without which the lift can not be completed.

Specificity may be the name of the game, but considering Louie Simmons and Rip have both said American O lifters lack raw strength, it seems that a lift like the athletic back squat would be of benefit. Why high bar back squat when it so closely resembles a front squat in torso position?

Because it removes some of the "core" component of th e front squat and allows greater loading without deviating so much from the front squat as to put the strength gains in the wrong place (as mentioned above).
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Old 06-16-2008, 10:31 PM   #34
Derek Maffett
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Re: Rippetoe Squatting

Quote:
Originally Posted by George Noble View Post
One would think that prevelance of such an imbalance would increase the impetus to squat in a way that strengthens the hamstrings - with the bar low on the back.

Why? The slight imbalance is fine as long as it doesn't hurt them, and the strength gained from high-bar is more applicable to the sport.

Unless Everett is denying that strong hamstrings are not useful for weightlifters, which seems odd since both events require pulling from the floor.

Yes, both events have pulls from the floor, and those pulls are trained with deadlifts, pulls, and likely other assistance exercises.

This links to another issue I have with Everett's article - that he seems to have missed Rip's point regarding what the back squat is actually used for. He argues that it is used to reinforce the clean whereas Rip argues that it is used to develop general strength and is most related to pulling from the floor.

It doesn't matter what Rip argues it is used for because he is arguing to replace the high-bar squat, and it must therefore make up for everything that is lost in the replacement. It does not.

Everett also says that the high bar back squat is used because it removes the core element of the front squat and allows greater leg overload. That's all well and good, but when you are attempting to reinforce a front squat I would think you would want to work you core, since it's no good having strong legs if you don't have a sufficiently strong core to front squat the weight.

Neither Everett nor Rippetoe are suggesting the removal of back squats from a good O-lifting training program. Stronger is most definitely necessary and the proper tools should be used for that goal. There is no argument being made (at least not by Everett or Rippetoe) that technique alone is sufficient.
......
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Old 06-17-2008, 12:07 AM   #35
Steven Quadros
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Re: Rippetoe Squatting

I said, originally:

"The point is that the low bar squat is not similar to the upright torso in the high bar or front squat. The low bar squat would be used because it allows one to use more muscle during the lift, creating a stronger lifter."

To which Derek Replied:

"But not the kind of strength O-lifters need. What use is a bunch of hamstring strength that is not used in the Clean and Jerk or Snatch? That strength would come into use during the pulls, but snatch/clean deadlifts/pulls are also used (as you mentioned yourself) and replacing the high-bar squat with the low-bar squat could be seen as strengthening the pull off the floor at the expense of strengthening the Olympic squat, without which the lift can not be completed."

O-lifters don't need, or couldn't use, more posterior chain strength? Interesting. More important than that is the loading that can be accomplished with the low bar back squat, which, because it's posterior chain heavy, can exceed the high bar squat. When top level athletes lift heavily, variety is important, and neither front nor high bar back squats can be loaded as heavily as low bar back squats. Pulling heavy from the floor, while it can be varied (snatch vs. clean grip, heavy deads vs. explosive pulls), is still pulling from the floor. The LB back squat is another way to lift heavy while giving the lifter a different stimulus. They will, quite simply, make a stronger lifter, lifting heavier weights. This, to me, seems a worthwhile endevour for strength and power athletes.

I also stated in that original argument that:

"Specificity may be the name of the game, but considering Louie Simmons and Rip have both said American O lifters lack raw strength, it seems that a lift like the athletic back squat would be of benefit. Why high bar back squat when it so closely resembles a front squat in torso position?"

To which Derek replied:

"Because it removes some of the "core" component of th e front squat and allows greater loading without deviating so much from the front squat as to put the strength gains in the wrong place (as mentioned above)."

It seems interesting that your argument is based upon the premise that O-lifters don't need stronger posterior chains at all. I think many would disagree.
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Old 06-17-2008, 02:18 AM   #36
Blair Robert Lowe
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Re: Rippetoe Squatting

Interesting is the angle of the torso in the low bar back squat when compared to a deadlift. I'm thinking it of a flipped version. Just my simple look on things.
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Old 06-17-2008, 05:03 AM   #37
George Noble
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Re: Rippetoe Squatting

Quote:
Originally Posted by Derek Maffett View Post
Why? The slight imbalance is fine as long as it doesn't hurt them, and the strength gained from high-bar is more applicable to the sport.
Maybe, maybe not. I would suggest that since the strength gained from the low bar position is strengthening a weak link, it is more applicable to the sport.
Quote:
Yes, both events have pulls from the floor, and those pulls are trained with deadlifts, pulls, and likely other assistance exercises.
In spite of training the pulls in this manner (if they even do - I've seen journals of weightlifters who do not deadlift), their hamstrings are underdeveloped. How does this happen?

Quote:
It doesn't matter what Rip argues it is used for because he is arguing to replace the high-bar squat, and it must therefore make up for everything that is lost in the replacement. It does not.
The things that it doesn't make up for are made up for by front squats, which lifters are doing a lot of anyway.

Quote:
Neither Everett nor Rippetoe are suggesting the removal of back squats from a good O-lifting training program. Stronger is most definitely necessary and the proper tools should be used for that goal. There is no argument being made (at least not by Everett or Rippetoe) that technique alone is sufficient.
This was not my argument. My argument was that front squats are better at strengthening the front squat part of the clean because they add more core work. His argument is that back squats are necessary to strengthen the front squat part of the clean because they take away the core work, which makes little sense to me. Of course I agree that weightlifters - along with just about everyone else on the planet - should back squat.
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Old 06-17-2008, 03:04 PM   #38
Derek Maffett
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Re: Rippetoe Squatting

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Quadros View Post
O-lifters don't need, or couldn't use, more posterior chain strength? Interesting.

Not at the expense of the quad strength used extensively in all the lifts.

More important than that is the loading that can be accomplished with the low bar back squat, which, because it's posterior chain heavy, can exceed the high bar squat. When top level athletes lift heavily, variety is important, and neither front nor high bar back squats can be loaded as heavily as low bar back squats. Pulling heavy from the floor, while it can be varied (snatch vs. clean grip, heavy deads vs. explosive pulls), is still pulling from the floor. The LB back squat is another way to lift heavy while giving the lifter a different stimulus. They will, quite simply, make a stronger lifter, lifting heavier weights. This, to me, seems a worthwhile endevour for strength and power athletes.

More variety to train the pulls. That's fine, but I think you may be overestimating the importance of the first pull. Quad strength is used extensively in the second pull, the front squat, and the jerk.

It seems interesting that your argument is based upon the premise that O-lifters don't need stronger posterior chains at all. I think many would disagree.

What I'm saying is that the extra posterior chain development is not as important as you think. It doesn't matter how strong your hamstrings are if the lifts are not demanding maximal strength output from them.
......

Last edited by Derek Maffett : 06-17-2008 at 03:07 PM.
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Old 06-17-2008, 03:48 PM   #39
Derek Maffett
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Re: Rippetoe Squatting

Quote:
Originally Posted by George Noble View Post
Maybe, maybe not. I would suggest that since the strength gained from the low bar position is strengthening a weak link, it is more applicable to the sport.

Developing a front lever might also be seen as strengthening a weak link. This isn't GPP. While the link may seem weak compared to other standards, it only becomes a problem if it is the weakest link.

In spite of training the pulls in this manner (if they even do - I've seen journals of weightlifters who do not deadlift), their hamstrings are underdeveloped. How does this happen?

Again, they are not so underdeveloped as all that if they are not the weakest link or close to it.

The things that it doesn't make up for are made up for by front squats, which lifters are doing a lot of anyway.

High-bar - mechanics and muscle recruitment very similar to the front squat; develops strength and power in that type of squat.
Low-bar - mechanics and muscle recruitment very dissimilar to the front squat; would train the pulls more; some carryover to the front squat, but not at the level of the HB back squat.

In other words, the LB back squat strengthens the pulls (which is useful but not particularly necessary) while neglecting the Olympic squat and other quad-centric portions of the lifts. The front squat will not all of the sudden pick up the slack - those portions of the lifts will simply be weaker than they should be.


This was not my argument. My argument was that front squats are better at strengthening the front squat part of the clean because they add more core work. His argument is that back squats are necessary to strengthen the front squat part of the clean because they take away the core work, which makes little sense to me. Of course I agree that weightlifters - along with just about everyone else on the planet - should back squat.

So then using LB bar squats to gain "general strength" and applying it to the front squat and other quad-centric lift components is good, but using HB back squat to do the same thing better is not because the front squat already handles it? Would you say that that the LB back squat's transference to the first pull is so important as to make the HB back squat's better transference to the rest of the lifts inadvisable?
......
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Old 06-17-2008, 05:01 PM   #40
Chris Bate
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Re: Rippetoe Squatting

So much theory.....You guys need some data
(Not suggesting I have any ^^)
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