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Old 08-25-2006, 01:42 PM   #11
Sean McDaniel
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Starting Strength, by that dude right above you.
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Old 08-25-2006, 06:27 PM   #12
Andres Diaz
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Thanks Mark Rippetoe, that is exactly what i wanted to know.

By the way, this has been said many times, but i cannot help repeating that your strength training routine/book/system is the best!
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Old 08-26-2006, 05:57 AM   #13
Larry Lindenman
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That's some awesome expert advise. There is nothing wrong with being on the Zone while strength training, just use higher blocks...or add a couple of blocks of protein. Coach Rip...I see improvements in athletes (in CF) when they go from 15% body fat to under 10%, probably due to lugging around less body weight. As a matter of fact, it's my belief this is why most people make immediate gains in Crossfit performance when on the Zone. Less fat = greater VO2 Max, easier bodyweight exercises, etc. Of course, this is providing the athlete maintains muscle mass (which the Zone does nicely). For pure power or strength, not necessary to go below 15%.
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Old 08-26-2006, 05:35 PM   #14
Mark Rippetoe
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"Less fat = greater VO2 max"? I'm not familiar with this effect. Lower bodyfat, and reduced bodymass thereby, obviously has a positive effect on bodyweight exercises, but unless you mean per unit of mass I cannot see how simple bodyfat reduction influences VO2.

My point above was that most people obsess about the wrong things. The vast majority of non-obese young men need to gain muscle waaaaaaayy worse than they need to lose a bunch of bodyfat, and the performance increases that result usually justify this position.
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Old 08-27-2006, 06:04 AM   #15
Larry Lindenman
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Sorry coach, yes I meant per unit of mass. VO2max is the maximum amount of oxygen in milliliters, an athlete can use in one minute per kilogram of body weight (ml/kg/min). Fat mass, does not limit VO2max relative to fat-free mass (muscle), but does reduce maximal and sub-maximal VO2max relative to body weight. Three ways to improve VO2Max: Increase cardiac output (more blood pumped per stroke), increase the body's ability to extract more oxygen out of the arterial blood, and lose fat without losing muscle mass. In other words, it is possible to increase VO2Max to the athletes genetic maximum regardless of bodyfat %. At that time the only limiting factor facing VO2Max increase is fat mass. Now, do we care and how this effects real athletes is an entirely different matter. If I train a football lineman, I really don't care; a running back may be a different story. Coach, I totally agree with you: "The vast majority of non-obese young men need to gain muscle waaaaaaayy worse than they need to lose a bunch of bodyfat, and the performance increases that result usually justify this position."
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Old 08-27-2006, 08:25 AM   #16
Michael Rutherford
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Strength BEFORE strength endurance
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Old 08-27-2006, 10:03 AM   #17
Steven Low
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On an off topic note, I surf a few bodybuilding sites for fun trying to educate the masses sometimes, and Mark's Starting Strength program is actually starting to be used by a lot of beginners which is awesome. Anyway, yeah just thought I'd let some of you know. :-)
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Old 08-29-2006, 06:43 AM   #18
Michael Simpson
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This has been a very interesting thread for me. I've been "following" Crossfit for more than a year, trying to do more than dabble in it, while struggling with many of the WODs. I think my strength just sucks. These comments hit home:
"Strength BEFORE strength endurance" - Coach Rut

and

"Your CF workouts should be designed around, and should defer to, your strength program until such time as your strength and lean body mass are up high enough to make you a more efficient athlete. In my opinion." - Mark Rippetoe

I'm thinking now that I'll switch my workouts to the SS plan for at least the next few months, and try full-out Crossfit after that. I'm wondering though, if there is some quantifiable standard I can use to determine when my "strength and lean body mass are high enough"? eg. being able to perform particular lifts at a certain percentage of body weight, or something similar?
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Old 08-29-2006, 09:32 AM   #19
Caz Berkowitz
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ok, so the plan is to follow the SS program to get my raw numbers up (currently back squat:190#; fnt squat:155#; dead:260#; don't know my bench, mil press:105#).

I'll do Crossfit on my off days, being sure to monitor my overall health for signs of overtraining.

I'll continue to follow the Zone. Currently I'm to consume 14 blocks, about 1274 cals a day. I'm just a little iffy on how much / or if, I increase my caloric intake since I'm 180lbs with 25% body fat at 43 yoa. AND if I do increase the total cals to support the new muscle mass I hope to develop, do I follow the Zone proportions and just add blocks or do I just add extra protein or some mixture inbetween?

Thanks to all who have provided really qualified advice. :happy:
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Old 08-29-2006, 05:10 PM   #20
Ron Wilhelm
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This thread and the comments by Coach Rut and Mark Rippetoe have convinced me that I should be engaged more in basic strength training program along the lines of the one in Starting Strength, rather that straight CrossFit.

While following the Zone and CF has allowed me to get my BF to less than 10%, I must admit that the difference I notice is mainly aesthetic, rather than performance. It's time to pack on the muscle!

Best. Thread. Ever.
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