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Old 02-10-2011, 07:04 AM   #21
Eric Montgomery
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Re: How long before a workout repeats?

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Originally Posted by CJ Kim View Post
And Coach would say just the opposite: "We will though work the deadlift, like most lifts, approximately once per week at higher reps and under grueling conditions. It may intuit well that if you can pull a 250 pound deadlift 21 times coming to the lift at a heart rate of 180 beats per minute, then 500 pounds for a single at a resting heart rate is perhaps manageable."
Just because Coach says it doesn't automatically make it true. And if you think doing moderate weight deadlifts for high reps (i.e. 250lbs x21) is the most efficient way to work your way up to a 500lb deadlift 1RM, you don't understand the process of getting stronger or smart programming in general.
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Old 02-10-2011, 07:43 AM   #22
Shane Skowron
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Re: How long before a workout repeats?

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Originally Posted by CJ Kim View Post
And Coach would say just the opposite: "We will though work the deadlift, like most lifts, approximately once per week at higher reps and under grueling conditions. It may intuit well that if you can pull a 250 pound deadlift 21 times coming to the lift at a heart rate of 180 beats per minute, then 500 pounds for a single at a resting heart rate is perhaps manageable."

Interview in Girevik Magazine: http://www.powerathletesmag.com/arch...ewglassman.htm (safe)
I can do 250 lb deadlift 21 times at 180bpm, but I can't deadlift 500 yet.


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I did not mean to imply you were being disrespectful, I don't think you are. It's just that I get the impression you don't really think much of Crossfit.

Based on what I have read (and feel free to correct any misperceptions), it seems that:
1. You don't really think Crossfit is distinguishable from anything that came before. you certainly don't think it is "bizarro world" different, as Coach says.
2. To the extent you do think Crossfit is different, you think the differences are inferior. For example, you seem to think the programming randomness is ineffective and that the some of the exercises are too dangerous.

I do enjoy your posts, and I fell like I learn a lot anytime we discuss something. It's just that, at the end of the day, it seems like you disagree with most things about Crossfit.
I'm just interested in discussing what works and what doesn't for the purpose of athletic training and similar goals.
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Old 02-10-2011, 09:39 PM   #23
CJ Kim
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Re: How long before a workout repeats?

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Originally Posted by Eric Montgomery View Post
Just because Coach says it doesn't automatically make it true. And if you think doing moderate weight deadlifts for high reps (i.e. 250lbs x21) is the most efficient way to work your way up to a 500lb deadlift 1RM, you don't understand the process of getting stronger or smart programming in general.
And if you don't think it's an efficient way, then either you don't understand Crossfit (unlikely) or you don't think much of it as a program. But if the program doesn't work, how do you explain all of the success stories?
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Old 02-10-2011, 09:46 PM   #24
CJ Kim
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Re: How long before a workout repeats?

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Originally Posted by Shane Skowron View Post
I can do 250 lb deadlift 21 times at 180bpm, but I can't deadlift 500 yet.
I find that surprising, I would think the opposite would be true for most -- e.g. it would be more difficult to hit half your DL max for 21 reps in a metcon then it would be to hit double your 21 rep weight for a single.


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Originally Posted by Shane Skowron View Post
I'm just interested in discussing what works and what doesn't for the purpose of athletic training and similar goals.
On that we can definitely agree. I would hate to think I am going through these punishing workouts for nothing. But, from my perspective at least, Crossfit seems to be what works.
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Old 02-10-2011, 10:01 PM   #25
Katherine Derbyshire
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Re: How long before a workout repeats?

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I find that surprising, I would think the opposite would be true for most -- e.g. it would be more difficult to hit half your DL max for 21 reps in a metcon then it would be to hit double your 21 rep weight for a single.
Have you actually tried it? I haven't tested my 20RM for deadlifts, but I have for squats, and I can tell you that I haven't got a snowball's chance in hell of squatting double that. But 20 reps at half my 1RM squat is just not that challenging.

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Old 02-10-2011, 11:06 PM   #26
Eric Montgomery
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Re: How long before a workout repeats?

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Originally Posted by CJ Kim View Post
And if you don't think it's an efficient way, then either you don't understand Crossfit (unlikely) or you don't think much of it as a program. But if the program doesn't work, how do you explain all of the success stories?
Oh trust me, I understand CF. I've been doing it for 4 years and coaching it for 2. I've attended several specialty cert, and I've also been smart enough to understand that there are plenty of people outside of CF who have some pretty good ideas about training, regardless of what HQ thinks about them. It's no exaggeration to say that I've spent several thousand hours reading and watching videos about different training methods and techniques over the last 4 years.

The 250x21 deadlift thing has as much factual basis as the claim about taking someone from a 200lb deadlift to 500-750lb deadlift in two years of CF.com workouts. For instance, I did a 20 rep squat program a few months ago and got up to 275x20. There's no way in hell I can squat 550lbs for a single...in fact, when I went back to heavy singles in preparation for a PL meet I couldn't handle any more than 350lbs the first few workouts because I didn't have the neuromuscular efficiency I needed to squat at 1RM type weights. I eventually got up to 380lbs in time for my meet....still quite a bit short of the hypothetical 550lbs. And I know for a fact I could deadlift 250x21, but my 1RM topped out at 473lbs at that same meet.

I'm familiar with all these success stories you're referring to, and most are due to novice gains. Pretty much any program can take someone from a 150lb squat to a 250lb squat if they work out with any consistency. That doesn't mean CF was the most efficient way to get them there. And when you say the program "works," how do you define what "works" means? Getting better at CF workouts, or actually getting stronger and more fit? There is a difference there.

If you want to get stronger in any reasonable amount of time, you have to do workouts on a regular basis that have you lifting at 1RM, 3RM, or 5RM type weights.

I think most of the reasoning and logic behind CF is solid and that it's a great way to improve people's GPP, but the application of it vis a vis CF.com workouts is pretty misguided. If you want to see the difference between logical, well thought-out programming and haphazard randomness check out something like OPT's Big Dawgs blog, CF Invictus, Catalyst Athletics, MEBB, etc. then compare it to what you see on CF.com.
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Old 02-10-2011, 11:11 PM   #27
Jared Ashley
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Re: How long before a workout repeats?

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Originally Posted by CJ Kim View Post
I find that surprising, I would think the opposite would be true for most -- e.g. it would be more difficult to hit half your DL max for 21 reps in a metcon then it would be to hit double your 21 rep weight for a single.
I think if you try it you'll find it quite impossible to double your 21 rep weight.

My 20RM dead is somewhere around 205. 1RM is 315.
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