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Old 08-04-2010, 08:02 AM   #31
Katherine Derbyshire
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Re: We need a water/swim obstacle in a CF competition. Why?

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Originally Posted by Jamie J. Skibicki View Post
"Yes, so obviously add martial arts training to help with conditioning and vice versa."

THis, while true, does not mean you get them both at the same place. I wouldn't ask my judo sensei for a training program any more than I would ask my weightlifting coach how to do an uchi mata.
What Jamie said. Few enough coaches are competent at *either* conditioning or martial arts. I'd expect the number who are good at both to be vanishingly small.

Katherine
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Old 08-04-2010, 09:00 AM   #32
Justin Z. Smith
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Re: We need a water/swim obstacle in a CF competition. Why?

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Originally Posted by Jamie J. Skibicki View Post
THis, while true, does not mean you get them both at the same place. I wouldn't ask my judo sensei for a training program any more than I would ask my weightlifting coach how to do an uchi mata.
Well yes maybe you wouldn't, or your instructor isn't qualified, for example, but many would and are. Think BrandX, Blauer, the Pit, or many others, for example, who do successfully combine to two related areas. If there aren't many coaches doing that, that is reason for getting more training on weaknesses than avoiding it. IMO of course.

Justin

Last edited by Justin Z. Smith : 08-04-2010 at 09:03 AM.
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Old 08-04-2010, 09:44 AM   #33
Katherine Derbyshire
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Re: We need a water/swim obstacle in a CF competition. Why?

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Originally Posted by Justin Z. Smith View Post
Well yes maybe you wouldn't, or your instructor isn't qualified, for example, but many would and are. Think BrandX, Blauer, the Pit, or many others, for example, who do successfully combine to two related areas. If there aren't many coaches doing that, that is reason for getting more training on weaknesses than avoiding it. IMO of course.

Justin
I don't know enough about any of those instructors to comment on their qualifications. But I know that my current aikido instructor is one of the best in the country. I'm not going to pick a different instructor or (worse) a different art just because they have a better conditioning program.

I've sort of ignored the question of whether "fighting" is an essential component of fitness until now, but I seriously question whether it is. IMO, if you find yourself getting in fights often enough to actually need training in fighting, you're doing something wrong. (As a private citizen, at least. MIL/LEO are a different story.)

Katherine
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Old 08-04-2010, 09:45 AM   #34
Jamie J. Skibicki
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Re: We need a water/swim obstacle in a CF competition. Why?

" If there aren't many coaches doing that, that is reason for getting more training on weaknesses than avoiding it"

If it is a weakness you care about. I think martial arts and combat sports (I'm not haveing that discussion, get into a fight with a boxer or wrestler and see what happens) are great and I am currently a judo player. I do not think that fighting is anymore of weakness than a number of other things (swimming, CPR, outdoor survival, etc).

CF claims to get you into shape. It doesn't claim to teach you how skills for your particular (unless your sport is CF). It claims to make you better at your sport by making you fitter.

I think the combat plus CF in one building is huge marketing advantage and a great idea. But so is CF + sports specific condtioning, CF+ MIL/LEO/SPec Ops prep, CF + <insert activity of your choice>.

I also think people must realize that fighting is a skill and each component of fighting (takes downs, submissions, strikes, etc) are all skills themselves. Look at the average CFers snatch or clean form then realize that their ability at the individual components of fighting, in whatever style, would be about the same.

The difference is that unless you are a competetive wieghtlifter, it really doesn't matter what your clean and snatch form is as long as you

Causes a stimulus which produces the desired adaptation
Has an appropiate risk to reward ratio (your form isn't so bad you are going to get hurt or injured)

If you are teaching someone how to fight and they are very good, there is good chance they will end up with their *** kicked at some point.

In summary (becuase I tend to be long winded when I get going)

1 learning to fight is good
2 there are other things people will want to do with their time
3 cf cannot be everything and should focus on what it's good at
4 cf should recognize it can't be good at everything and either encourage trainees to seek specialized training, bring those specialized coaches into your box, or the CF trainer should become a specialized trainer as well
5 Combat should be treated and respected as a skill
6 Not knowing how to fight is better than thinking you know how to fight when you don't
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Old 08-04-2010, 10:15 AM   #35
Katherine Derbyshire
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Re: We need a water/swim obstacle in a CF competition. Why?

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Originally Posted by Jamie J. Skibicki View Post
6 Not knowing how to fight is better than thinking you know how to fight when you don't
Most important observation in the whole post. Barbells don't fight back. You can still get a conditioning benefit with lousy olympic lifting technique. Going into a fight with the level of martial skills that you would get from, say, a weekend cert would be a really stupid idea.

Katherine
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Old 08-04-2010, 10:35 AM   #36
Justin Z. Smith
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Re: We need a water/swim obstacle in a CF competition. Why?

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Originally Posted by Katherine Derbyshire View Post
Going into a fight with the level of martial skills that you would get from, say, a weekend cert would be a really stupid idea.

Katherine
No arguments there, except if going into a fight is 100% un-escapable, better to go in with some skills than none and have 1% chance of survival instead of 0%.

Justin
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Old 08-04-2010, 10:46 AM   #37
Katherine Derbyshire
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Re: We need a water/swim obstacle in a CF competition. Why?

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Originally Posted by Justin Z. Smith View Post
No arguments there, except if going into a fight is 100% un-escapable, better to go in with some skills than none and have 1% chance of survival instead of 0%.
How many fights are truly unescapable for the average private citizen?

How often does misguided belief in one's own skills make a fight more likely, rather than less?

People think they're qualified to teach Crossfit after a weekend cert, so I'm not confident that people learning fighting skills in a similar environment would be any more realistic about their abilities.

Katherine
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Old 08-04-2010, 10:59 AM   #38
Lincoln Brigham
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Re: We need a water/swim obstacle in a CF competition. Why?

The first two Crossfit seminars I went to, before they were called Level I seminars, had John Hackleman teaching fighting skills on Sunday. It was interesting but I'm still not sure how I feel about martial arts. I mean, I've never taken a martial arts class and I've been undefeated for the past 4 decades. Heck, that's a better record than Hackleman!
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Old 08-04-2010, 11:32 AM   #39
Mark Kosmowski
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Re: We need a water/swim obstacle in a CF competition. Why?

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I don't understand the obsession with swimming lately in CF, people have been doing great without it for about 5-6 years now. If you want to do it on your own, then so be it, but don't start expressing the need for everyone else to do it (same with biking). I used to be a fantastic swimmer from ages 5-12 then got burned out and focused on other sports. I am still an efficient swimmer and beat most of my old friends in races for fun, and I still try to get to the pool a few times a year mainly just for fun (see water basketball). However if someone has managed to get into their 20's or 30's never having swam before than it obviously is not important to that persons life and is definitely not going to be life threatening to them. Same goes for biking, are you a bad parent because you don't teach your kid to ride a bike? I honestly cannot remember the last time I was on a bike, or if I ever actually NEEDED to be on a bike. Who are we to say that you should HAVE to know how to swim or bike? My guess is that if they managed to avoid the pool for 20+ years now that they are grown and can make their own decisions that they are not going to take vacations to lakes, rivers or oceans, and are not going to spend their summers at the pool, so who cares if they know how to swim or not? Also just adding stuff into CF workouts isn't going to do the trick, tbh if they started adding in swimming to the mainsite, etc. I would totally ignore it, and if it came up in the sectionals / regionals I would be totally confident in my abilities having done zero swim specific workouts. Thats why Crossfit is GPP (which is not caveman stuff, but what is relevant in YOUR specific life), there is all kinds of stuff you could start to say is 'life-saving' and therefore should be added to WoDs but that gets ridiculous really fast, and is not a good way to program a fitness regiment. In reality you would be way better off practicing CPR technique and the heimlich if you were truly concerned with real life saving because last time I checked I have performed CPR twice and have yet to come on an instance of lifting a fallen tree off of a person. Instead of looking at the one thing (aparently) she cannot do, maybe you should praise her on her accomplishments so far, because maybe she doesn't give two ****s about swimming, I don't.

Edit: And if you threw it into the games, say AFTER every event, they threw that in, are you seriously going to sit there and after a 200m swim or 500m swim go "Ok, NOW they can officially be considered the fittest man/woman in the world, but definitely NOT before that swim, that swim TOTALLY DEFINED THE GAMES and definitely pushed my opinion over the edge!" That is ridiculous.
I added the bold to the quoted text. It seems to me that this argument can be made about running, squatting, olympic lifting or any number of functional movements trained by CF. Am I mising something?
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Old 08-04-2010, 11:50 AM   #40
Jamie J. Skibicki
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Re: We need a water/swim obstacle in a CF competition. Why?

"However if someone has managed to get into their 20's or 30's never having swam before than it obviously is not important to that persons life and is definitely not going to be life threatening to them"

"I added the bold to the quoted text. It seems to me that this argument can be made about running, squatting, olympic lifting or any number of functional movements trained by CF. Am I mising something? "

Sort of.

THere is the skill of an actvitiy and the conditioning affect it produces. Football players don't Clean and Snatch to be good at cleaning and snatching, they do them to provide a stimulus which makes them better football players.

In additon to the conditioning affect, the motor pathways of landbased activties are typically more related to each other than water based activities. THis works both ways of course.
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