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Exercises Movements, technique & proper execution

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Old 07-15-2009, 10:56 AM   #11
Greg Privitera
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Re: Running Technique

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Originally Posted by Andrew H. Meador View Post
It's not a conscious process that a gymnastics coach teaches his athletes. It happens in any repetitive task. You're incredibly rude Steven. /Thread
Try not to take this as a personal attack, but rather an attack at something which you should not be so sure about. What your saying sounds kind of like a guess. Maybe Steven's is too. But he does have extensive gymnastics exposure. Maybe he knows what he's talking about?

Either way, his suggestion is valid, don't take so much offense.
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Old 07-15-2009, 11:10 AM   #12
Michael Wengloski
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Re: Running Technique

I always thought they ran weird because they were flexing, just kind of a showmanship thing.
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Old 07-15-2009, 05:20 PM   #13
Andrew H. Meador
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Re: Running Technique

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Originally Posted by Greg Privitera View Post
Either way, his suggestion is valid, don't take so much offense.
As is mine regarding cueing. Greg, I take offense at Steven's constant rudeness around the forum. I can't recall reading more than 5 posts of his that are polite. His advice as a whole is quite good, and he is knowledgeable (particularly about programming), but it doesn't excuse his attitude problem. And in this particular case, I maintain that the athletes are doing something in order to maximize their performance in the event, even if they have no idea why. A quarterback could care less why he throws the ball differently than a baseball pitcher throws the ball. He just does it that way because it works. Gymnasts run in a particular way during the event in order to maximize their gymnastic performance. Put them on a track and have them run a 200m dash for time, and they would look a lot more like track athletes in their running style. The first few seconds would look goofy because they're accustomed to running the first few seconds in that way, but after that period of time is over, their bodies would fall into step in a natural running rhythm. It's not because a highly-coordinated group of athletes (who can master flips and spins the likes of which most of us can't even imagine doing) are improperly taught how to execute a very simple and fundamental human movement - running.
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Old 07-15-2009, 06:11 PM   #14
Steven Low
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Re: Running Technique

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As is mine regarding cueing. Greg, I take offense at Steven's constant rudeness around the forum. I can't recall reading more than 5 posts of his that are polite. [...] but it doesn't excuse his attitude problem.
Apparently, you don't read many of my posts as most are not in "Starting" "Fitness" and "Exercise" in which mostly repetitive questions are asked, and where there is a lot of incorrect or partially correct information given (although it has gotten much better).

And telling someone to "search" or "read the FAQ" is not rude. I think we've been over this before.


Quote:
And in this particular case, I maintain that the athletes are doing something in order to maximize their performance in the event, even if they have no idea why. A quarterback could care less why he throws the ball differently than a baseball pitcher throws the ball. He just does it that way because it works. Gymnasts run in a particular way during the event in order to maximize their gymnastic performance. Put them on a track and have them run a 200m dash for time, and they would look a lot more like track athletes in their running style. The first few seconds would look goofy because they're accustomed to running the first few seconds in that way, but after that period of time is over, their bodies would fall into step in a natural running rhythm. It's not because a highly-coordinated group of athletes (who can master flips and spins the likes of which most of us can't even imagine doing) are improperly taught how to execute a very simple and fundamental human movement - running.
No, the problem is that if they are doing this down the whole runway it's not a cue it's bad technique.

1a. Starting off with poor technique at the beginning is a coaching problem not a cuing problem because it doesn't affect the actual entry and exit on the vaulting table.

And even they start off with weird technique and the run becomes natural it's fine and THUS not cuing.

2. But if it doesn't become natural down the length of the runway then that's on a whole teaching improper technique for running.

Any way you put it, it's incorrect and bad and NOT CUING. I take offense to wrong information.


edit: I'm not saying there's no cuing in gymnastics... there certainly is a lot of it, but it's all done on body positions for start/entry and exit of SKILLS... the running aspect is before skills but not at the START/entry of the skill and thus not part of the actual cuing that goes into vaulting elements such as yurchenkos, etc. This occurs at the HURDLE.
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Old 07-15-2009, 11:03 PM   #15
Zeke Riding
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Re: Running Technique

Forgive my ignorance if these questions seem quite simple or I use the wrong word, as I am a novice at gymnastics and gymnastics terminology.

Steven, what do you view as the correct technique for running in gymnastics as setup for a floor or vault skill? (realising that some floor run ups are merely a step or two before the hurdle and are quite slow and controlled)
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Old 07-16-2009, 01:00 AM   #16
Steven Low
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Re: Running Technique

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Originally Posted by Zeke Riding View Post
Forgive my ignorance if these questions seem quite simple or I use the wrong word, as I am a novice at gymnastics and gymnastics terminology.

Steven, what do you view as the correct technique for running in gymnastics as setup for a floor or vault skill? (realising that some floor run ups are merely a step or two before the hurdle and are quite slow and controlled)
Same as sprinting.

Theoretically, at least. Will derive the most speed which when correctly transferred into RO BHS technique will give the most rebound. Same with vaulting. The top vaulters are generally the ones that get down the runway fastest (and can control their speed), but COULD be faster had their technique improved so... take from that what you will.

Unfortunately, I don't think I've seen any gymnasts actually trained in proper sprinting technique so it's probably moot for now.
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Old 07-16-2009, 09:47 AM   #17
Steven Low
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Re: Running Technique

For clarification, the best tumblers are still the best tumblers out of just a hurdle because they can generate more power from their technique and start of the hurdle.

The run just adds energy and is no way dependent on "cuing" or whatever.
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Old 07-16-2009, 09:54 AM   #18
Andrew H. Meador
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Re: Running Technique

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Originally Posted by Steven Low View Post
Any way you put it, it's incorrect and bad and NOT CUING. I take offense to wrong information.
From Merriam-Webster's online dictionary, Steven:

Main Entry:
3cue
Function:
transitive verb
Inflected Form(s):
cued; cu·ing or cue·ing
Date:
1922
1 : to give a cue to : prompt
2 : to insert into a continuous performance <cue in sound effects


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Last edited by Camille Lore; 07-16-2009 at 12:39 PM.. Reason: AUP
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Old 07-16-2009, 12:50 PM   #19
Steven Low
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Re: Running Technique

If you know so much about this in gymnastics then I'm sure you can explain to me how some of the "weird running techniques" employed in vaulting and floor exercise translate into increased technical proficiency in the hurdle.
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Old 07-16-2009, 02:07 PM   #20
Blair Robert Lowe
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Re: Running Technique

Really this question would be best answered by some high level gymnastics coaches. Perhaps Katrina could chime in, but I'm not sure optional level coaches are high enough ( myself included ). While we may have been to seminars and clinics by high level coaches on why gymnasts do this, it's still very much conjecture.

Lacking this, means you are commenting as an outsider. Perhaps Roger Harrell can answer this as Roger should have some of his teammates in college that were closer to elites. I will see about asking Gabe or Russ about this as both were junior elites.

I have asked ex olympians, coaches who have coached olympians, and ex high level collegiate elites on why gymnasts do this. It seems the consensus is that they were focusing on hitting the board and vault tight or doing the same while tumbling. In artistic gymnastics you take 3-5 steps and a hurdle maybe while in power tumbling you probably get up to 7 or 10 besides being on the rod floor.

In the past years, the yurchenko vault ( round-off onto the springboard, back handspring onto the horse/vault and typically flip/twist off ) have sped up in the past years it was done before. When they were first done, the approach was very slow but now it's probably done just as fast as if they were tumbling on the floor.

Personally, I think vaulters curb their speed a limit in the approach. In polevault, we were told to do so to maintain control of the pole besides expending all of our energy besides the fact we cannot pump the arms to balance. Towards the jump and plant, we would be at top speed and it slowly ramps up versus sprinting out of the blocks which is basically pushing aggressively to accelerate if it's a 100 or 200.

I never tested the 40 from blocks but basically I believe there is a little "trigger" when doing a full sprint. My only thoughts while sprinting were GO-GO-GO! similar to when accelerating a car to full RPM once when I had to move out of where I was so I wouldn't be broadsided by 2 cars on each side or of course when I was street racing or doing straight away or lap timing.

As well, one of those elites, who happens to have a MS in biomechanics noted that the shoulders of gymnasts are so much stronger compared to most runners that it can be swung at a far faster rate to keep in tandem with the legs that sprinter do ( bent arm is faster than straight arm ) but as well, most gymnasts/vaulters don't run/accelerate at maximal speeds.

Also bare in mind, that gymnasts typically have been shown to not run as fast as sprinters down the vault. We are talking about a short distance ( 25m at most ). I'd argue that some of them could probably hold their own to some sprinters but there is also a difference in surface ( we run on the vault on 5/4" foam roll which is sometimes under a sprung floor or wood floor ) versus a track or dirt.

Steven, I wonder if we can get an answer out of Coach Sommer. He's probably the most accesible coach we can contact at the upper level of gymnastics and get a response. I wonder if Mark Young ( who frequently does clinics on vault and the approach and was the coach of Amy Chow ).

Actually one of the coaches to ask is probably Mas Watanabe. He was basically responsible for reviving the WAG program in the 80's and 90's and getting it organized ( figures, Japanese ). He currently runs a blog over at the GymSmarts community. Bill Sands might have some data on it but he is more of a biomechanics guy than a coach.

We could of course contact Barry Ross or someone similar at PM, but that wouldn't give us the opinion from a gymnastics point of view. Namely, a high level/Elite opinion rather than a compulsory/optional POV.

I will see about asking the local coaches I can contact in Norcal about this, chiefly the men who were junior elite or collegiate. I need to figure out a list of who to ask and send this out in the community first.
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