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Old 07-03-2010, 08:42 PM   #31
Chris Mason
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Re: Negative Reps

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Originally Posted by Jeff Smith View Post

Believing a rack pull vs. a deifict pull is that big of a change of the wrongly named/defined "conjugate system" to avoid "CNS burnout" and pattern overload can only be regarded as the regurgitation of a worn out dogma.

Strong statement, now back it up with something. Provide an explanation as to why a deficit and rack pull would not help to prevent CNS related overtraining.
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Old 07-03-2010, 08:55 PM   #32
Jacob Israel Briskin
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Re: Negative Reps

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Originally Posted by Jeff Smith View Post
Believing a rack pull vs. a deifict pull is that big of a change of the wrongly named/defined "conjugate system" to avoid "CNS burnout" and pattern overload can only be regarded as the regurgitation of a worn out dogma.
Wait, what exactly are you saying with this statement? I've read it a few times and I understand all of the terms you are using, but the sentence as a whole is confusing me.
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Old 07-03-2010, 09:38 PM   #33
Jeff Smith
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Re: Negative Reps

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Strong statement, now back it up with something. Provide an explanation as to why a deficit and rack pull would not help to prevent CNS related overtraining.
If you really think a few inches difference makes a difference in a pulling movement, or a board press is enough of a difference than a floor press, be my guest. That is laughable and nothing more than you telling us what Louie has already written. CNS fatigue is nothing more than an accumulation of different stressors, which is not going to be prevented by hanging some bands from the top of the rack one week and then doing a rack pull the next.


And really Chris. Using Westside as a soapbox of injury prevention is ridiculous. Sub-maximal training has been proven and continues to be the most efficient way to gain strength and be injury free over a long period of time. Please refer to any of the Soviet manuals you seem to want to quote from. Also, "conjugate" training is not changing exercises. It never has been. Read Supertraining, though it is a highly overrated book.

As a further point of interest, please read the Soviet weightlifting yearbooks as well as the book on Naim Suleymanoglu and how his training had progressed from a younger age.

The problems with linear training isn't the training, it's the application of the training. It's like blaming a car for an accident.

I don't think anyone has any problems with having a mentor in training but please show a little more indiviudality in your thoughts on training. I was once where you were.
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Old 07-04-2010, 01:20 PM   #34
Chris Mason
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Re: Negative Reps

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Originally Posted by Jeff Smith View Post
If you really think a few inches difference makes a difference in a pulling movement, or a board press is enough of a difference than a floor press, be my guest. That is laughable and nothing more than you telling us what Louie has already written. CNS fatigue is nothing more than an accumulation of different stressors, which is not going to be prevented by hanging some bands from the top of the rack one week and then doing a rack pull the next.


And really Chris. Using Westside as a soapbox of injury prevention is ridiculous. Sub-maximal training has been proven and continues to be the most efficient way to gain strength and be injury free over a long period of time. Please refer to any of the Soviet manuals you seem to want to quote from. Also, "conjugate" training is not changing exercises. It never has been. Read Supertraining, though it is a highly overrated book.

As a further point of interest, please read the Soviet weightlifting yearbooks as well as the book on Naim Suleymanoglu and how his training had progressed from a younger age.

The problems with linear training isn't the training, it's the application of the training. It's like blaming a car for an accident.

I don't think anyone has any problems with having a mentor in training but please show a little more indiviudality in your thoughts on training. I was once where you were.
Again, provide some viable proof for your position. You failed to do it the first time asked and I suspect it is because you don't have a clue about the machinations behind the topics you are speaking so authoritatively on.

Olympic training, which Louie is intelligent enough to understand, is quite different than powerlifting thus concepts need to be tweaked when used.

Olympic training, by definition, involves sub-maximal exercise in the sense of fully taxing the force production capacity of most of the involved musculature hence why you can front squat more than you can squat clean and why you can deadlift more than you can high pull and so on...

Anyway, I won't argue the fact that training with heavy loads short of concentric failure works. I KNOW it works. The question is whether it is optimal. Louie thinks not and I tend to agree with most of his thoughts on training.

As to my individuality, I used to truly believe a variety of HIT training was the best. I was heavily influenced by the writings of Dr. Ellington Darden. I still am. With that said, after years and years and a lot of studying and learning I have come to conclusion that Louie's system, at least the vast majority of it, is the best way to go. I suppose knowing most of the top powerlifters in the world including men with the best all-time totals has had a bit of an influence on my thinking...

Now, if you really want to bash me or Louie further please come up with some sort of a constructive argument, not the backed by nothing opinion you have spewed here thus far.

Oh, and one last thing, my belief in the efficacy of conjugate variety stems from information I knew prior to ever investigating Westside training.
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Old 07-04-2010, 01:34 PM   #35
Chris Mason
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Re: Negative Reps

Oh, and hey Jeff, here is some proof of how crap Louie's training methods are. Dave Hoff and AJ Roberts both benching well over 800 lbs in a meet yesterday... Man, if only they used your sub-maximal training they might be benching 1100 lbs each...

http://www.powerliftingwatch.com/nod...comment-139019

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Old 07-04-2010, 04:02 PM   #36
Anthony Bainbridge
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Re: Negative Reps

The IPF the largest federation in the world, the people competing in it obviously want to get strong, and it's not like they haven't heard about westside. So why aren't more of them using it?

I don't want to get into an argument about IPF vs other feds, and I don't want to get into an argument of Sheiko VS Westside. There are are enough great lifters on both sides in various feds to make all of us look like amateurs.

My only point is that conjugated periodization is not optimal for beginners. Keep it as simple as possible, but not any simpler. That should be the motto of every coach on the planet.
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Old 07-04-2010, 05:51 PM   #37
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Re: Negative Reps

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The IPF the largest federation in the world, the people competing in it obviously want to get strong, and it's not like they haven't heard about westside. So why aren't more of them using it?

I don't want to get into an argument about IPF vs other feds, and I don't want to get into an argument of Sheiko VS Westside. There are are enough great lifters on both sides in various feds to make all of us look like amateurs.

My only point is that conjugated periodization is not optimal for beginners. Keep it as simple as possible, but not any simpler. That should be the motto of every coach on the planet.

Cultural differences and nationalistic tendencies are a significant reason. In addition, why pretend you have any real idea what the majority of IPF trainees actually do in the gym?

Westside and Louie have had a HUGE influence on how people train. Not all of them follow Westside's template, but a HUGE majority of lifters incorporate something from it in their training.

On the point about optimal for beginners, beyond the very first few sessions in the gym perhaps we can agree to disagree? Would I do an exact Westside template for every trainee, no, but I would apply many of the principles to just about all of them.
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Old 07-05-2010, 10:17 AM   #38
Anthony Bainbridge
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Re: Negative Reps

Chris, come on now. If you're going to call me out about how people actually train in the gym, you can't turn around and claim that people don't use westside because of cultural differences.

I have no problem with westside's template, I've used it a few times myself. I just don't think it's optimal (or necessary) for everyone. So yes, we can agree to disagree.

PS - I still plan to make it to columbus eventually - you better be there so I can show you how to deadlift. Bring Daniel too!
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Old 07-05-2010, 10:44 AM   #39
Chris Mason
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Re: Negative Reps

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Originally Posted by Anthony Bainbridge View Post
Chris, come on now. If you're going to call me out about how people actually train in the gym, you can't turn around and claim that people don't use westside because of cultural differences.

I have no problem with westside's template, I've used it a few times myself. I just don't think it's optimal (or necessary) for everyone. So yes, we can agree to disagree.

PS - I still plan to make it to columbus eventually - you better be there so I can show you how to deadlift. Bring Daniel too!
Lol, you don't want to know what I am pulling these days. It would leave you depressed .
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Old 07-05-2010, 02:18 PM   #40
Anthony Bainbridge
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Re: Negative Reps

I still have you on Wilks!! :stir:
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