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Old 04-06-2009, 01:56 PM   #131
Jack Stetson
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Smile Re: Paleo prevents Western Diseases?

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Originally Posted by Laura Kurth View Post
I'm frankly kind of annoyed with myself for the amount of time I've spent reading this thread
Well it's been nice having you in the debate at any rate.
Thanks for participating.
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Old 04-06-2009, 02:00 PM   #132
Jeff S Johnson
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Re: Paleo prevents Western Diseases?

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Originally Posted by Brad Kuper View Post
I have always wondered if it is possible for a person to get fat by eating nothing but veggies and lean cuts of meat. I have even wondered if it is possible to get fat by eating veggies and any kind of meat you want. I mean eat these in unlimited quantities and actually challenge yourself to get fat on such a diet.

The results would be interesting.
Don't know about getting fat from it, but it might get you "rabbit starvation" if the lean in lean cuts of meat was taken too literally.

Fat intake is necessary.
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Old 04-06-2009, 02:05 PM   #133
Brad Kuper
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Re: Paleo prevents Western Diseases?

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Originally Posted by Jeff S Johnson View Post
Don't know about getting fat from it, but it might get you "rabbit starvation" if the lean in lean cuts of meat was taken too literally.

Fat intake is necessary.
That's a very good point.

I would also like to see if Robert can find the study to which he was referring.

I don't really get into debates about this stuff with people. It's kind of like debating religion and politics. My simple story was that I did not buy into "low carb" for years and went paleo just to experiment with myself. I thought "what the heck, a diet free of bread and pasta probably will not kill me." I was surprised how well it worked and have never gone back.

People can make up their own minds.
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Old 04-06-2009, 02:11 PM   #134
Benjamin Wheeler
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Re: Paleo prevents Western Diseases?

Laura,

If energy in/energy out was all that mattered then why would someone like Robb Wolf suggest that without a proper diet you will not see changes in body composition from exercise. You will get fitter, but you will not see any change in body composition. He's not just throwing this out there either, he sees it in clients all the time. http://*************/?p=34 (WFS)

Now let's look at a diet high in carbohydrates and its ability to induce hyperinsulinemia and insulin resistance in an individual. As I am sure you know (or at least I hope you do), insulin is the only hormone that promotes fat accumulation (storage). Well when your insulin is chronically elevated ( not just after eating a meal high in carbs but in between meals aswell) your body is in a state that will NOT use fat as fuel. Why? Becuase hyperinsulinemia makes our body believe that we have just been fed a meal high in carbohydrates (high levels of insulin in the bloodstream). This primes the cells to burn glucose, and only glucose will satisfy that demand. The high level of insulin in the blood prevents the liver from releasing the glucose it has stored in the form of glycogen. It is becuase of this "primed" state that our cells our in for the use of glucose as fuel that we will crave carbohydrates. Even if we are fed Protein or Fat the hyperinsulinemia will work to store those nutrients at adipose tissue anyways.

When you eat a diet low in carbs (especially refined) and use fat as your main source of fuel your promoting the mobilization of fat out of the adipose tissue so the fat will not be stored long term.

We eat because we are obese, we aren't obese because we eat. This hyperinsulinemia that is promoting fat accumulation (from a diet high in carbs) is blocking an available metabolic fuel by storing fat instead of using it. We have all this available fuel in our fat stores but insulin won't let it out, our cells are starving, they need fuel so we have to eat more to compensate. This is also a critical factor in women who have fertility issues. It's not the obesity causing it, its the lack of metabolic fuels to not only support cells in her body but in reproduction. The first drug they put her on? You got it Laura, and insulin regulator.

Last edited by Benjamin Wheeler : 04-06-2009 at 02:15 PM.
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Old 04-06-2009, 02:14 PM   #135
Kevin Croke
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Re: Paleo prevents Western Diseases?

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Originally Posted by Katherine Derbyshire View Post
You do realize that even unsustainably thin people have 4-5% bf, right? And typical healthy males have 15%? For a 150 pound person, 15% is more than 20 pounds of stored fat.

So you're saying that a person who routinely carries around 20 pounds of stored fat is somehow genetically incapable of storing an additional 5 or 10 pounds given the right environmental stimulus. (It takes more than that to be obese, of course, but even obese people only gain a few pounds at a time.)

And I'm the one who doesn't understand genetics? Okay...

Katherine
Im gonna leave it at this post because its only going around in circles and its really not getting through. The average person today may carry around 15% body fat. This figure is pushed up by really fat people but thats purely acedemic because it doesnt matter a hoot what the average body fat today is. The fact remains that all evidence shows that hunter gatherer societies were not fat, nor are they today (as you freely admit). Therefore they would not have selected in a fat storage gene because it is useless.

Lets take the example used from Dawkins "The Selfish Gene" (I suggest you read it). Genes are like members of a rowing team. They get selected if they are of use they get dropped if they are not. A rowing team would never select a team member who sits in the boat and does nothing but will put out a fire if needed. Even though this would be advantagous in cases of fire the simple facts remain rowing boats do not go on fire. In paleolithic man (the chap who picked the team we have today) there was no need for a team member (gene) that stored fat because they didnt get fat (as you have already stated).

Good day to you.
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Old 04-06-2009, 02:26 PM   #136
Katherine Derbyshire
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Re: Paleo prevents Western Diseases?

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Originally Posted by Kevin Croke View Post
Im gonna leave it at this post because its only going around in circles and its really not getting through. The average person today may carry around 15% body fat. This figure is pushed up by really fat people but thats purely acedemic because it doesnt matter a hoot what the average body fat today is. The fact remains that all evidence shows that hunter gatherer societies were not fat, nor are they today (as you freely admit). Therefore they would not have selected in a fat storage gene because it is useless.
Actually, I pulled the 15% number from Robert's post suggesting that typical hunter-gatherers maintained that level.

The point still holds for any "typical" level greater than zero, though. If a person is genetically able to store X pounds of fat, then they can easily store X+some pounds as well. And I defy you to produce a healthy human--in any era--with *zero* stored body fat. (Famine and concentration camp victims don't count. Bodybuilders cutting for competitions don't count. Neither of these groups can sustain their low bf% and remain healthy. And even they don't get all the way to zero.)

You're right, though, in that this conversation isn't going anywhere. Best to just agree to disagree.

Katherine

Last edited by Katherine Derbyshire : 04-06-2009 at 02:29 PM.
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Old 04-06-2009, 03:08 PM   #137
Robert Callahan
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Re: Paleo prevents Western Diseases?

Katherine, Kevin, I think you guys are getting arguing different things.

Human beings require some level of BF in order to sustain daily function. The amount of body fat we hold will fluctuate with seasons as well as age and sex. I don't think there is any disagreement here.

Paleolithic man/woman was not obese. Anything that hurt his chance of survival would be selected against through the glorious mechanism that is evolution. Thus it would not make sense that people today have a "fatty gene" which predisposes them to putting on excessive body fat. Key word excessive. Even in times of famine as I mentioned earlier you can survive off 15% BF for approx. 30 days. If you need more time than that between meals your pretty much screwed already and storing more fat is not going to help you.

This does not mean genetics has nothing to do with weight. But the genetic factor is insulin sensitivity and how we respond to certain foods that spike insulin. Most of these foods are processed refined carbs that we find in todays diet. Some people can tolerate them better than others, but it is not because of a "fat gene" that some people have.

Does that make sense?
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Old 04-06-2009, 04:16 PM   #138
Katherine Derbyshire
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Re: Paleo prevents Western Diseases?

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Originally Posted by Robert Callahan View Post
Paleolithic man/woman was not obese. Anything that hurt his chance of survival would be selected against through the glorious mechanism that is evolution. Thus it would not make sense that people today have a "fatty gene" which predisposes them to putting on excessive body fat. Key word excessive.
Yes, the key word is excessive.

My contention is that patterns of fat storage which made perfect sense and were a *positive* adaptation for Paleo man have *become* excessive in the modern environment.

Gaining a few extra pounds in the fall and losing it by spring is no big deal. But gaining a few extra pounds this year, and a few more next year, and a few more the year after that... that's how you become obese.

Katherine

Last edited by Katherine Derbyshire : 04-06-2009 at 04:19 PM.
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Old 04-06-2009, 04:39 PM   #139
Jack Stetson
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Re: Paleo prevents Western Diseases?

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Originally Posted by Robert Callahan View Post

the genetic factor is insulin sensitivity and how we respond to certain foods that spike insulin. Most of these foods are processed refined carbs that we find in todays diet. Some people can tolerate them better than others, but it is not because of a "fat gene" that some people have.
That's far too simple a hypothesis Robert. While no one "fat gene" has been identified, numerous genes have been identified that may play a role in weight regulation. More are being investigated. Morbid obesity clearly has a pattern of genetic inheritance. Research is still in it's nascent stages and will progress as the genetic code is better interpreted/sequenced, but there are multiple genes identified that are suspects in obesity.

Genes control most all of our physiology to one extent or another. Why are carbs so 'addictive'? The neural response pathway to the consumption of carbs is regulated by genes. How do we achieve satiety? The hormonal pathway triggering the sensation of satiety is genetically determined. Metaboic rate? genes. Ad inifinitum.

It is not as simple as insulin sensitivity--I doubt even the deified journalist Taubes would make that argument.

Katherine is right that our ability to store adipose is advantageous. It is only in the last century or so that our adaption to store energy in the form of fat has become detrimental because of our changes in activity level and over-abundance of calories (specifically starch/sugar IMHO). And the selection pressures to change that are pretty slight.
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Old 04-06-2009, 06:03 PM   #140
Robert Callahan
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Re: Paleo prevents Western Diseases?

Yes you are right that is a very simplistic view that is not nearly the whole picture. All I was trying to articulate was that there is not a gene that makes some people fat and others not, regardless of diet. My contention is that the vast majority of the overweight population when put on a "healthy diet", however you want to define that, should shed body fat and be able to maintain a healthy bf%. This has been my experience in practice working with clients and I think is true in the vast majority of cases. (I say vast majoirty and not all because there are a few rare disorders associated with fat deposition, ala lipodystrophy)
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