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Old 11-19-2008, 08:47 AM   #111
William Hunter
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Re: couture v. lesnar in UFC!

I was a big Vera fan for a while, but he has really seemed to have lost his edge recently. He has not looked sharp and/or aggressive for a couple of years. I keep thinking that during his next fight he'll bounce back...but I'm still waiting.

I don't feel bad at all for Randy. The guy's done well for himself, and despite him and Dana having a chilly relationship he gets ALL the good fights. Heck, he was disposed of quite nicely by Chuck during their last two matchups, retires, then unretires to immediate HW championship fight. Most guys have to get in line somewhere before their shot. I think he won the HW title in a time period where there wasn't the greatest comp. Now there are a bunch of really big HW's, and I think Randy would have a tough time with many of them. Overall he's had a brilliant career pulled off as many big wins as anyone ever has, but I think Brock would pummel him repeatedly if they fought again.
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Old 11-19-2008, 11:39 AM   #112
Phillip Garrison
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Re: couture v. lesnar in UFC!

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Originally Posted by Max Zerba View Post
Randy got beat by a bigger, stronger, younger man with good skills. The last thing UFC needs is another HW division. Randy at 220 could make 205 easily, if he wanted. He fights at HW because its a weak division. If you add another division, you would make it even worse.
It seems like some people on here are seeing Brock is a no skills hulk who won by sheer size. People seem to gloss over the fact that like Randy, like Koscheck, like Matt Hughes Brock came into the UFC with a high wrestling pedigree (world class in fact) and is rapidly rounding out his other skills. He has KO power and precision in his fists as evident by him knocking Herring across the octagon with one punch, not an easy feat. A guy with the skillls to be the best collegiate wrestler in the nation will not take long to develop above average skills in submission grappling and boxing. It's not like Brock is the new Tank Abbot.
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Old 11-19-2008, 03:17 PM   #113
Jeffrey Crawford
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Re: couture v. lesnar in UFC!

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Originally Posted by Bernard Edwards View Post
1. Vera has to cut weight to fight light heavy - look at his strength and stamina when he fought at heavy. Cutting weight is not for everyone.

2. Brandon beat Mir at heavywieght - Mir beat Brock... How is Brock a horrible match up? Also Brandon has more knockouts at heavyweight of guys all outweighing him than he does at light heavy - how does this record display someone who should never have been a heavyweight?

W/F/S http://sherdog.com/fighter/Brandon-Vera-4886

3. I think Brock picks up thinks very fast too
The only thing worse than my typing is your MMA math if you think because Vera beat an out of shape, unmotivated Mir that means he stands a good chance against Brock you will be let down big time. I don't need to check his record I have seen most of Brandons fights inside the and outside the UFC, I'm actually a fan. However, Dude was a small heavyweight who did not have proper nutrition and did not want to diet to make light heavy. Thats cool. But his body is not built like a heavyweight. He said himself he made the drop because people were too big ( Tim) and he was going to get more serious. He should stay at light heavy and rack up some wins before he even thinks about brock.

I would love to see him next to forrest and see who looks bigger...I'm guessing forrest...could be wrong though
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Old 11-19-2008, 03:22 PM   #114
Jeffrey Crawford
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Re: couture v. lesnar in UFC!

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Originally Posted by Phillip Garrisonq View Post
It seems like some people on here are seeing Brock is a no skills hulk who won by sheer size. People seem to gloss over the fact that like Randy, like Koscheck, like Matt Hughes Brock came into the UFC with a high wrestling pedigree (world class in fact) and is rapidly rounding out his other skills. He has KO power and precision in his fists as evident by him knocking Herring across the octagon with one punch, not an easy feat. A guy with the skillls to be the best collegiate wrestler in the nation will not take long to develop above average skills in submission grappling and boxing. It's not like Brock is the new Tank Abbot.
Exactly.......dude is gonna give lots of people fits.
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Old 11-21-2008, 03:58 AM   #115
Will Parker
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Re: couture v. lesnar in UFC!

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Originally Posted by Katrina A. Burton View Post
As far as Lesnar goes... I think the UFC needs to introduce an ultra-heavyweight division. We all know the only reason Lesnar beat Couture is because he weighs 60lbs more than him and basically sat on him and suffocated him the entire match. If Couture fought some skiiny kid who weighed 145lbs everyone would shout that the kid got robbed and the fight was unfair based on the size differences. That's exactly what ut was there.
So do you think, by extension, that Couture would have lost in that fight if he were facing Butterbean or Bobb Sapp?

Both those guys have been deystroyed by much smaller guys, both in K1 and MMA matches. I can't see either of them lasting more than 3 minutes against Couture.

That means that Lesnar must have skill instead of just size and agility.

Brock also cut and made weight and beat Randy in the Heavyweight weight class, which makes your point about needing a heavier weight class a moot point.

The big problem Brock has is nothing to do with his WWE history, it is because he is what we MAists train to be able to cope with. Martial arts are designed to negate attribute advantage, and appeal to those who feel such ability is necessary. Brock is the guy who reminds us all that there is only so much you can cope with, trained or not.
Thats why he will never be accepted in the mma community imho.
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Old 11-21-2008, 07:20 AM   #116
James Besenyei
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Re: couture v. lesnar in UFC!

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Originally Posted by Will Parker View Post
So do you think, by extension, that Couture would have lost in that fight if he were facing Butterbean or Bobb Sapp?

Both those guys have been deystroyed by much smaller guys, both in K1 and MMA matches. I can't see either of them lasting more than 3 minutes against Couture.

That means that Lesnar must have skill instead of just size and agility.

Brock also cut and made weight and beat Randy in the Heavyweight weight class, which makes your point about needing a heavier weight class a moot point.

The big problem Brock has is nothing to do with his WWE history, it is because he is what we MAists train to be able to cope with. Martial arts are designed to negate attribute advantage, and appeal to those who feel such ability is necessary. Brock is the guy who reminds us all that there is only so much you can cope with, trained or not.

Thats why he will never be accepted in the mma community imho.
Great points made in this post! It is often said that strength/size is its own martial art.

Take two fighters: one with an extremely solid skill set, and lots of experience in a particular fighting arena; the other with an overwhelming size/strength advantage, some really good basic skills, and some limited experience in the particular arena of the first fighter.

These two compete against one another. Fighter one can negate the distinct strength/size advantage of fighter two if he can take advantage of fighter two's relative lack of skill and experience. Where fighter one must be careful, however, is that he cannot let fighter two learn or begin to feel comfortable during the fight. Should fighter two negate the experience advantage then his overwhelming strength/size advantage can (if he is careful) give him the edge.

This is due to the fact that fighter two's good skills coupled with his overwhelming strength/size advantage overtake fighter one's skill set. No matter how solid fighter one's skills are he cannot, during the course of the fight, get bigger or stronger. The calculus changes, of course, with each new fight and each new opponent. If we change fighter one's skill set to excellent/varied/masterful/etc., keep the experience high, and change the strength/size advantage of fighter two to distinct (but not overwhelming), the outcome may be different.

I know these terms are ambiguous, but I think you all know where I'm heading with this argument: strength/size can overwhelm skill if the fighter with the strength/size advantage is not simply a big punching bag (he actually has a skill set) and his strength/size advantage is distinct (Brock is not just big but quick and extremely athletic); skills can overwhelm strength/size if the skill advantage is great enough and the size difference is not so great that it is physically impossible to win no matter how skilled one is (think Brock vs. Florian).

WOW, sorry bout the diatribe.
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Old 11-21-2008, 12:39 PM   #117
Phillip Garrison
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Re: couture v. lesnar in UFC!

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Originally Posted by Will Parker View Post
So do you think, by extension, that Couture would have lost in that fight if he were facing Butterbean or Bobb Sapp?

Both those guys have been deystroyed by much smaller guys, both in K1 and MMA matches. I can't see either of them lasting more than 3 minutes against Couture.

That means that Lesnar must have skill instead of just size and agility.

Brock also cut and made weight and beat Randy in the Heavyweight weight class, which makes your point about needing a heavier weight class a moot point.

The big problem Brock has is nothing to do with his WWE history, it is because he is what we MAists train to be able to cope with. Martial arts are designed to negate attribute advantage, and appeal to those who feel such ability is necessary. Brock is the guy who reminds us all that there is only so much you can cope with, trained or not.
Thats why he will never be accepted in the mma community imho.
Plus Couture stomped Sylvia and GOnzaga who both outweighed him by 40-60lbs.
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Old 11-21-2008, 08:03 PM   #118
Jay Ashman
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Re: couture v. lesnar in UFC!

brock haters need to chill out...

the guy isn't the second coming, but he is a solid fighter.

when he improves his game he will be a great fighter, but he will still... never... beat.... fedor...

I'd pay good money to see Fedor beat Brock in 30 seconds
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Old 11-22-2008, 05:24 AM   #119
James Besenyei
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Re: couture v. lesnar in UFC!

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Originally Posted by Jay Ashman View Post
brock haters need to chill out...

the guy isn't the second coming, but he is a solid fighter.

when he improves his game he will be a great fighter, but he will still... never... beat.... fedor...

I'd pay good money to see Fedor beat Brock in 30 seconds
No doubt! Fedor has already destroyed guys bigger (though less talented) than Brock. The guy is simply amazing.

Fedor v. Arlovski on January 24th. I hope it lasts longer than the Sylvia fight. And can't imagine Arlovski not being prepared. Fedor wins, I just hope it's entertaining.
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Old 11-22-2008, 01:21 PM   #120
Jay Ashman
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Re: couture v. lesnar in UFC!

I don't think Arlovski stands much of a chance against Fedor whatsoever. 1st round KO as well, he is susceptible to getting knocked around as told by Sylvia so I don't expect his to stand with Fedor at all.

Brock has talent but I think Fedor is the best MMArtist I have ever seen fight. People say Silva, Penn, St. Pierre but those guys haven't had the dominating presence and finishing abilty of Fedor. Plus is there anyone more aggressive than Fedor right now? I don't think there is. He attacks, he doesn't feel you out, he goes after you.
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