CrossFit Discussion Board  

Go Back   CrossFit Discussion Board > CrossFit Forum > Nutrition
CrossFit Home Forum Site Rules CrossFit FAQ Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Nutrition Diet, supplements, weightloss, health & longevity

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 04-06-2009, 06:06 PM   #141
Robert Callahan
Member Robert Callahan is offline
 
Robert Callahan's Avatar
 
Profile:
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Zzyzx  CA
Posts: 1,626
Re: Paleo prevents Western Diseases?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katherine Derbyshire View Post
My contention is that patterns of fat storage which made perfect sense and were a *positive* adaptation for Paleo man have *become* excessive in the modern environment.

Gaining a few extra pounds in the fall and losing it by spring is no big deal. But gaining a few extra pounds this year, and a few more next year, and a few more the year after that... that's how you become obese.
I dunno Katherine, a lot of the people I know still experience seasonal weight changes, both the gain in the winter and the loss in the spring... It may not be as simple as people just adding a few pounds every year, though maybe it is. It would be an interesting area to do a long term study, not sure where the funding would come from.... details details
__________________
"I swear by my life and by my love of it that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine"
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2009, 07:15 PM   #142
Phillip Garrison
Banned Phillip Garrison is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Mesa  AZ
Posts: 1,382
Re: Paleo prevents Western Diseases?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benjamin Wheeler View Post
Laura,

If energy in/energy out was all that mattered then why would someone like Robb Wolf suggest that without a proper diet you will not see changes in body composition from exercise. You will get fitter, but you will not see any change in body composition. He's not just throwing this out there either, he sees it in clients all the time. http://*************/?p=34 (WFS)

Now let's look at a diet high in carbohydrates and its ability to induce hyperinsulinemia and insulin resistance in an individual. As I am sure you know (or at least I hope you do), insulin is the only hormone that promotes fat accumulation (storage). Well when your insulin is chronically elevated ( not just after eating a meal high in carbs but in between meals aswell) your body is in a state that will NOT use fat as fuel. Why? Becuase hyperinsulinemia makes our body believe that we have just been fed a meal high in carbohydrates (high levels of insulin in the bloodstream). This primes the cells to burn glucose, and only glucose will satisfy that demand. The high level of insulin in the blood prevents the liver from releasing the glucose it has stored in the form of glycogen. It is becuase of this "primed" state that our cells our in for the use of glucose as fuel that we will crave carbohydrates. Even if we are fed Protein or Fat the hyperinsulinemia will work to store those nutrients at adipose tissue anyways.

When you eat a diet low in carbs (especially refined) and use fat as your main source of fuel your promoting the mobilization of fat out of the adipose tissue so the fat will not be stored long term.

We eat because we are obese, we aren't obese because we eat. This hyperinsulinemia that is promoting fat accumulation (from a diet high in carbs) is blocking an available metabolic fuel by storing fat instead of using it. We have all this available fuel in our fat stores but insulin won't let it out, our cells are starving, they need fuel so we have to eat more to compensate. This is also a critical factor in women who have fertility issues. It's not the obesity causing it, its the lack of metabolic fuels to not only support cells in her body but in reproduction. The first drug they put her on? You got it Laura, and insulin regulator.
It's because on a hypocaloric diet that isn't healthy your body will first lose muscle mass, then fat, but if you look at victims of starvation (holocaust, pow camps, etc) eventually you'll lose fat and muscle if you're on a hypocaloric diet long enough.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2009, 07:17 PM   #143
Phillip Garrison
Banned Phillip Garrison is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Mesa  AZ
Posts: 1,382
Re: Paleo prevents Western Diseases?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Croke View Post
Im gonna leave it at this post because its only going around in circles and its really not getting through. The average person today may carry around 15% body fat. This figure is pushed up by really fat people but thats purely acedemic because it doesnt matter a hoot what the average body fat today is. The fact remains that all evidence shows that hunter gatherer societies were not fat, nor are they today (as you freely admit). Therefore they would not have selected in a fat storage gene because it is useless.

Lets take the example used from Dawkins "The Selfish Gene" (I suggest you read it). Genes are like members of a rowing team. They get selected if they are of use they get dropped if they are not. A rowing team would never select a team member who sits in the boat and does nothing but will put out a fire if needed. Even though this would be advantagous in cases of fire the simple facts remain rowing boats do not go on fire. In paleolithic man (the chap who picked the team we have today) there was no need for a team member (gene) that stored fat because they didnt get fat (as you have already stated).

Good day to you.

Actually the average American today is storing well over 15% bf.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2009, 07:18 PM   #144
Phillip Garrison
Banned Phillip Garrison is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Mesa  AZ
Posts: 1,382
Re: Paleo prevents Western Diseases?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Callahan View Post
Yes you are right that is a very simplistic view that is not nearly the whole picture. All I was trying to articulate was that there is not a gene that makes some people fat and others not, regardless of diet. My contention is that the vast majority of the overweight population when put on a "healthy diet", however you want to define that, should shed body fat and be able to maintain a healthy bf%. This has been my experience in practice working with clients and I think is true in the vast majority of cases. (I say vast majoirty and not all because there are a few rare disorders associated with fat deposition, ala lipodystrophy)
Actually there are genes that some people fat, especially some people who are extremely morbidly obese
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2009, 07:19 PM   #145
Phillip Garrison
Banned Phillip Garrison is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Mesa  AZ
Posts: 1,382
Re: Paleo prevents Western Diseases?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Callahan View Post
Katherine, Kevin, I think you guys are getting arguing different things.

Human beings require some level of BF in order to sustain daily function. The amount of body fat we hold will fluctuate with seasons as well as age and sex. I don't think there is any disagreement here.

Paleolithic man/woman was not obese. Anything that hurt his chance of survival would be selected against through the glorious mechanism that is evolution. Thus it would not make sense that people today have a "fatty gene" which predisposes them to putting on excessive body fat. Key word excessive. Even in times of famine as I mentioned earlier you can survive off 15% BF for approx. 30 days. If you need more time than that between meals your pretty much screwed already and storing more fat is not going to help you.

This does not mean genetics has nothing to do with weight. But the genetic factor is insulin sensitivity and how we respond to certain foods that spike insulin. Most of these foods are processed refined carbs that we find in todays diet. Some people can tolerate them better than others, but it is not because of a "fat gene" that some people have.

Does that make sense?
Paleolithic people weren't obese due to environment not genes. They were quite adept at storing fat, otherwise they would have died during times of famine.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2009, 07:23 PM   #146
Phillip Garrison
Banned Phillip Garrison is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Mesa  AZ
Posts: 1,382
Re: Paleo prevents Western Diseases?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Laura Kurth View Post
of course if you ate 6,000 calories of paleo food you would put on weight. Assuming that previously you were eating less and maintaining your weight. And didn't increase your activity.

Do people actually believe that if you added a significant number of calories to your diet in the form of 'paleo' food, you would not gain weight?

Trying to fatten up doing paleo might be quite tough as it has been noted, the caloric excess might be difficult to achieve especially if following cordains 'lean meats' guideline, and/or not having a large appetite.

But if you succeed in creating the caloric excess then of course you will gain weight. If you are training hard and the surplus is not too big, you may be lucky enough to gain a large proportion of it as muscle.
You would put on weight if you didn't expend 6,000 kilocalories a day
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2009, 07:27 PM   #147
Phillip Garrison
Banned Phillip Garrison is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Mesa  AZ
Posts: 1,382
Re: Paleo prevents Western Diseases?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Callahan View Post
Go back and review Jim's post. In fact here is a great thread that he started: http://board.CrossFit.com/showthread.php?t=41555 (WFS)
Go read through that when you have some time.



You know why dairy helps with mass gain so much? Because the protein in dairy, unlike most dense protein sources (read: animal meat), has a rather potent insulin response as opposed to the typical glucagon response.



Yes in fact you can. Do some research. Your body will fight to maintain a healthy BF% under normal hormonal conditions, ie good diet. Your body can shed excess calories in a number of different ways. a) when you eat your body increases it's metabolic rate, how much it increases depends on how much food you eat b) your body will burn excess calories as raw heat c) you experience "restlessness" because your body has extra energy that it wants you to burn d) your body can pass extra food as fecal matter that does not even get absorbed or used in the first place.

If you increased your calorie intake and kept your calorie output exactly the same, then yes you would gain weight. The problem is that the shear act of increasing your caloric intake results in an automatic increase in caloric output whether you want it too or not. This is how someone can increase their intake from 3,000 to 4,000 calories and experience little to no weight gain, if they are eating the right foods.

This is also how hunter gather societies maintained such a healthy BF%. at 15% BF your body can survive for ~30 days without food. There is no evolutionary benefit for going over that BF% because of the diminishing returns you would get from that extra fat storage and the effect it would have on your ability to maneuver and survive in your environment. Plus after 30 days with no food you are pretty much screwed....
At 15%body fat your body can survive longer than 30 days. At 170lbs a person with 15%bf would be carrying 11.6kg's of fat, which would be 104193 kcals a day. Assuming a person not eating would restrict their activity, they would likely expend no more 1500kcals a day. If they consumed no food they would have enough TAG's to live for 70 days.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2009, 07:28 PM   #148
Phillip Garrison
Banned Phillip Garrison is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Mesa  AZ
Posts: 1,382
Re: Paleo prevents Western Diseases?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Croke View Post
But it wasnt/is not used in hunter gatherer societies Katherine, which is the period we evolved. So the gene could not have arose because it had no use in hunter gatherer societies because they didnt/dont store large amounts of fat. So the gene would have been mute. I dont mean to sound condescending but i dont think you understand how genes are selected.
Genes don't arise from use/necessity, they arrive through genetic variation.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2009, 07:30 PM   #149
Phillip Garrison
Banned Phillip Garrison is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Mesa  AZ
Posts: 1,382
Re: Paleo prevents Western Diseases?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Stetson View Post
I'm going to weigh in with Katherine on this one. It's grossly clear we do have the ability to store fat and will do so given a caloric excess; ergo we are genetically predisposed to store fat. It's self-evident. Given any surplus of calories, we will either become more active or store those calories as fat.

That being said, few Hunter/gather societies don't have obesity issues because 1) they are very active, 2) they eat fewer high-glycemic foods, and 3) they don't have a food surplus. Most Hunter/gatherer societies have to work hard for food. Constantly. Take any Hunter/gatherer and put them on a Western diet with a western desk job and they'll become obese like the rest of us.

The problem is that while the ability to store fat has obvious survival benefits, when unchecked by natures forces (and diets) it leads to health problems.
The fact that fat cells can expand through both hyperplasia and hypertrophy shows that humans were designed to allow for nearly endless fat storage under the right conditions
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2009, 07:50 PM   #150
Benjamin Wheeler
Member Benjamin Wheeler is offline
 
Benjamin Wheeler's Avatar
 
Profile:
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Victoria  BC Canada
Posts: 287
Re: Paleo prevents Western Diseases?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phillip Garrison View Post
It's because on a hypocaloric diet that isn't healthy your body will first lose muscle mass, then fat, but if you look at victims of starvation (holocaust, pow camps, etc) eventually you'll lose fat and muscle if you're on a hypocaloric diet long enough.
Phillip,

Of course I hypocaloric diet will lead to both muscle and fat loss but your body will compensate also by expanding less energy aswell, to try and balance it.

I was not talking about semi-starvation (which has shown to induce no long term weight-loss) or a complete starvation such as the holocaust. I was only trying to explain the metabolic outcome of a diet high in carbohydrates (especially the refined kinds in todays standard diet) on the mobilization or accumulation of adipose tissue. There seems to be many factors associated with the "western diseases" (more than just nutrition) but it cannot be argued that wherever the typical western diet goes the metabolic syndrome and all diseases associated (CVD,cancer, dementia etc) will follow. Until someone shows me supporting evidence that a paleolithic diet promotes western disease then it would be safe to say it prevents them.
  Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Western MD Josh Armstrong In Search of CrossFitters 0 06-03-2008 07:37 PM
What adaptation prevents Rhabdo? Andrew Gray Fitness 8 05-27-2008 07:43 AM
Thumbs on top of bar for kip prevents ripped callous? Nick Cruz Exercises 9 02-07-2008 07:58 PM
Fear of death prevents exercise Kemal Eren Fitness 11 12-09-2007 03:50 PM
hello from western WA Heather Archambeault Starting 5 12-04-2007 06:05 AM


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:36 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
CrossFit is a registered trademark of CrossFit Inc.