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Fitness Theory and Practice. CrossFit's rationale & foundations. Who is fit? What is fitness?

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Old 12-17-2008, 12:09 PM   #241
Alex Europa
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Re: Charles Poliquin on Crossfit

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Originally Posted by Barry Cooper View Post
You have received a dozen answers to your question, but the only one that appears acceptable is to say that there is no exercise physiology textbook we can point to which validates our position.

Speaking for myself, people like you are the precise reason organizations like the NSCA do more harm than good. Not only are you criticizing something you don't understand, you don't WANT to understand. You want us to come back around to your way of thinking, and are uncomprehending that we might somehow continute to be obtuse, as seen from the porthole you look out of.
Well said. +1
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Old 12-17-2008, 12:13 PM   #242
Phillip Garrison
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Re: Charles Poliquin on Crossfit

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Phil,

You may CrossFit every day, BUT YOU HAVEN'T DONE GRACE.

Bottom line: when the Chuckster sends some athletes to the Games and they dominate, I'll stand up and pay attention. For now, you keep asking questions you ignore the answers to, and have not even apparently had the guts to try one of the high rep O-lifting WOD's.

Intentional or not, this is being obtuse past the point where troll is the most relevant word. You have received a dozen answers to your question, but the only one that appears acceptable is to say that there is no exercise physiology textbook we can point to which validates our position.

Speaking for myself, people like you are the precise reason organizations like the NSCA do more harm than good. Not only are you criticizing something you don't understand, you don't WANT to understand. You want us to come back around to your way of thinking, and are uncomprehending that we might somehow continute to be obtuse, as seen from the porthole you look out of.
Lol, ok I forget you hang out in my gym and know exactly how I work out each day. Again I don't like Chuck anymore than you guys dobut he raises a good point. Exactly how is the NSCA doing more harm than good? They are an organization which is actively sharing info and reseaerch and constantly trying to improve the science and practical application of sports performance. Continuing to do something simply becuase it's part of the WOD or because people outside of CF don't do it is as pointless as not doing something just because Poliquin thinks it may be unwise.

I understand CF just as well as you do, and love it just as much, which is why I continually ask questions as part of the process of continued growth and change.
 
Old 12-17-2008, 12:14 PM   #243
Alex Europa
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Re: Charles Poliquin on Crossfit

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Continuing to do something simply becuase it's part of the WOD or because people outside of CF don't do it is as pointless as not doing something just because Poliquin thinks it may be unwise.
We do it because it WORKS.

- Alex
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Old 12-17-2008, 12:21 PM   #244
Phillip Garrison
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Re: Charles Poliquin on Crossfit

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A conversation requires both parties to contribute, all you've done is keep asking the same question over and over. A question that was answered 5 pages ago.



To quote Coach Glassman, "Yes."



Why? Many CrossFitters have proven otherwise. What's ironic about this whole conversation is that the only dogmatic blindness that is being spewed are "facts" that have been dispelled countless times by the CrossFit programming. Or maybe we shouldn't do pull-ups two days in a row either?



Newsflash, we do all of those things. For someone that "does CrossFit every day," you REALLY don't get it. Our goal isn't just moderate power production. It seems really stupid that I have to keep going over this, but clearly you continue to lose the forest for the trees. The objective of CrossFit is to develop increased work capacity over broad time and modal domains while developing competency in the 10 components of fitness. We use the C&J and snatch (both the KB and barbell versions) as one means to accomplish this.

Yes, KB versions of the snatch and C&J also work to the same end, which makes them a valuable tool in the toolbox, right next to the barbell version. The top CrossFitters certainly have no problem stepping from a 1RM C&J to "Grace." Take Pat Barber for example, he has a 270ish C&J (BW 165), and can hold his own in the high-rep department. The same can be said of many others that aren't as gifted/well-trained as Josh Everett. The point is, with the proper implementation and additional skill work (which, I probably need to remind you as well, is considered a part of the CrossFit programming) high-rep O-lifting doesn't create the problems that the "experts" continue to claim.

You aren't being derided for questioning CrossFit, you're being derided because you aren't asking anything new. Answers to every single question that you have ever asked has been addressed at some point by the powers that be. Forgive me if I expect someone to do their homework before questioning the rationale. Several months ago I suggested that you spent more time reading the archives and less time questioning. That suggestion still stands.

- Alex
Wow what a shock instead of thinking for yourself, you again use Glassman as your answer nice appeal to authority fallacy right there.

Top crossfitters haven't proven otherwise, if they have I'd like to see by which metrics they or you have proven that.

The top crossfotters don't having a problem, but they are sacrifcing the peak power production from a single to triple rep power clean they would have otherwise enjoyed. There is a reason why athletes in other sports that demand broad based fitness like the Decathlon don't do high rep Olympic work, and choose to use other lifts for developing good moderate and repeat power production, because it provides better overall power to use singles, doubles and triples with good technique on the Olympic lifts, and use things like KB's and dumbbell cleans and snatches instead.

I never stated that moderate power was the goal of CF, you once again misinterpret what I say to support your own arguments. CF is a GPP, which by definition is a program designed to improve many aspects of fitness at the sacrifice of becoming elite in anyone to the detriment of all others. Utilizing Power Cleans and Snatches is one of many tools to do this. But much like having someone learn great sprinting form and then using it to run 10,000 meters is not the best way to get broad based fitness using a movement designed for peak power production to enhance moderate repeat power is not the most effective method either.
 
Old 12-17-2008, 12:22 PM   #245
Phillip Garrison
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Re: Charles Poliquin on Crossfit

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We do it because it WORKS.

- Alex
Well I could have you compete against some collegiate decathletes who don't do 30 reps power cleans who would prove you most definetly wrong. You have no idea of 30 rep cleans is the best way to do it, because you have nothing else to compare it to.
 
Old 12-17-2008, 12:27 PM   #246
David Wood
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Re: Charles Poliquin on Crossfit

Guys?

This one is getting pointless, and certainly testy.

Find something new to say (and politely, please), or it gets shut down.
 
Old 12-17-2008, 12:29 PM   #247
Alex Europa
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Re: Charles Poliquin on Crossfit

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Guys?

This one is getting pointless, and certainly testy.

Find something new to say (and politely, please), or it gets shut down.
Actually, it was pointless about 20 pages ago. Oh well, sorry Dave.

- Alex
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Old 12-17-2008, 12:30 PM   #248
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Re: Charles Poliquin on Crossfit

For once we actually agree
 
Old 12-17-2008, 12:45 PM   #249
Chris Walls
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Re: Charles Poliquin on Crossfit

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because it provides better overall power to use singles, doubles and triples with good technique on the Olympic lifts, and use things like KB's and dumbbell cleans and snatches instead.
But we do heavy singles, doubles and triples with good technique to work on peak power.

If these are unparalleled for peak power, would they not also be unparalleled at lower weights and higher reps for moderate power? Over say... a 10k run like you mentioned earlier? (and not just barbell, but all manner of C+J/Snatch)
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Old 12-17-2008, 05:17 PM   #250
Frederic Giraud
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Re: Charles Poliquin on Crossfit

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Exactly how is the NSCA doing more harm than good?
Phil,

What about the fact that this organization is against lower than parralel squat and show studies that squats ( or squat-ish movement ) are really bad for the knee joint health and is an exercise that should be avoided at all cost.
What about the fact that the same organization is against overhead work stating that they are detrimental to your shoulder's health.

This is where Barry was heading when saying such organization does more bad than good for the fitness community and development.

Trainers in globo-style gyms all over the world read those and say: "Ok no more squat for my clients, leg press machine will do the trick..." when the solution is actually squating deeper and more frequently.

I don't think anyone here is against the fact that questioning crossfit and the methodologies and exercise behind it is in fact a sane and proper way to develop crossfit.

Einstein once said that "We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them". I think this is were Alex and Barry are trying to get you to understand.

In our opinion we don't want to use the same old metrics used by the scientific communities because those metric led to such outrageous conclusion ( squats are dangerous for knees, and overhead work will create problems in your shoulders , for example ). This training regimen has develop its owns metrics, and with such, has developed tremendous GPP in a repeatable and measurable way.

We understand high rep Olift seems madness to you, you made it pretty clear. But it seems we don't care. That same madness is seen as goodness over here. As Barry pointed out, it's just one other variable, that is mathematically bound to happen one day in life, that is covered by such combination of high rep and highly technical lifts like O-lifts. We don't do it to cover the "peak-production" metric, nor the "moderate power production" metric. We do it to cover the "work" metric.

There is one job. We do it. Work has been done. end.

Let me end by telling that I'm someone that life is led by science, objective thinking and realistic views. I don't advocate crossfit because it's a religion to me. I advocate it because scientifically speaking it has proven many time its measurable and repeatable goodies.

Excuse my english . I'm French.
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Last edited by Frederic Giraud : 12-17-2008 at 05:23 PM. Reason: tried to fix my poor english...
 
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