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Fitness Theory and Practice. CrossFit's rationale & foundations. Who is fit? What is fitness?

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Old 12-09-2008, 12:47 AM   #191
Charles Whitworth
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Re: Charles Poliquin on Crossfit

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Originally Posted by Gavin Harrison View Post
Does Mr Hooper train himself that way, or does he train differently to be able to perform at the world level in a drug tested powerlifting federation, and give you that because you're playing sports which benefit from more strength-bias GPP?
He gave us that type of workout because he believed it was the best for getting us into shape, getting us stronger and more explosive at the same time. I do not know what his personal protocol is at this time. When I knew him, He would would work out with us.

In sports, the bigger, stronger, faster, more in shape team with equal instruction and coaching has an advantage. One simply can not play more football and expect to bench 400 lbs or run a 4.6 forty at 230lbs... It doesnt work that way. Thats why something extra is required.

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My point is only this: yes, every(most?) sport benefits from GPP, however, I believe there are a few for which excessive GPP can be detrimental to performance, especially at the world, national, or even state level.
Excessive? I would not advocate doing alot close to a competition, nor would I recommend very much of any type of hard training close to a competition.
 
Old 12-11-2008, 01:12 PM   #192
Daniel Barulich
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Re: Charles Poliquin on Crossfit

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Originally Posted by Charles Whitworth View Post
Your point does not hold water here because CF covers higher rep ranges and lower rep ranges.



You are not understanding the basics, so of course the conversation is going nowhere. Once you understand the basics, then you might be able to figure it out yourself. We can't make it any easier than the basics.



Once you can understand the basics, you might get something more than the easiest of answers.



I don't read Poliquin anymore because his techniques generally lead to so-so results. The best thing he ever posted on his site was GVT several years ago and that wasnt even his idea. If you are interested in that type of training, you should spend some time reading Pendlay and the Dual Factor Training that came afterwards.
Basics of what, explain?

One of Polquins main gripes is the use of high rep Olympic lifting for metabolic conditioning in the Crossfit protocol. His logic is that the Olympic lifts are best suited for increasing explosiveness in the low rep range when form is emphasized. Along with this flaw, he points out, is that a one weekend cert isn't sufficient time to train a coach to "coach" the O-Lifts, and thus, dangerous to prescribe to an inexperienced athlete. I believe he also mentions one of the WODs using Deadlifts and running in succession, stating it is risky to perform one activity after the other due to the tightening of the hamstrings.

That is perfectly legitimate and well articulated criticism. What is not is your dogmatic response. If your is intention is to belittle my posts, you should at least first define what you mean by "the basics", as we come from different athletic backgrounds and may not share the same idea. Secondly, your response seems to imply I don't believe Crossfit utilizes high-rep ranges. Ignorant, to say the least, since I have used the protocol in a modified fashion for quite some time, and check the WOD daily.
 
Old 12-11-2008, 04:22 PM   #193
Charles Whitworth
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Re: Charles Poliquin on Crossfit

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Originally Posted by Daniel Barulich View Post
Basics of what, explain?
You do not appear to know what Crossfit does, so that's why the answers are basic

Quote:
One of Polquins main gripes is the use of high rep Olympic lifting for metabolic conditioning in the Crossfit protocol. His logic is that the Olympic lifts are best suited for increasing explosiveness in the low rep range when form is emphasized.
Hi rep schemes have their purpose. Peaking programs start with higher rep schemes, then mid range, then lower rep ranges. This is not new, its been around for a while. I doubt very seriously Poliquin does not know this. It appears he is simply trying to discredit a philosophy.

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Along with this flaw, he points out, is that a one weekend cert isn't sufficient time to train a coach to "coach" the O-Lifts, and thus, dangerous to prescribe to an inexperienced athlete. I believe he also mentions one of the WODs using Deadlifts and running in succession, stating it is risky to perform one activity after the other due to the tightening of the hamstrings.
LOL and the average gymrat that doesnt get his coaching advice but subscribes to his beliefs, writings, and philosophy is still using the wrong form. Along with the millions in the gym that use bad form because "Mr. big biceps/no calves gymrat" said it was the right way. Seriously, this is quite a simple excuse for Poliquin to use to maintain his "expert aura" and a fat wallet--not hard to see through at all.

Quote:
That is perfectly legitimate and well articulated criticism. What is not is your dogmatic response. If your is intention is to belittle my posts, you should at least first define what you mean by "the basics", as we come from different athletic backgrounds and may not share the same idea.

Secondly, your response seems to imply I don't believe Crossfit utilizes high-rep ranges. Ignorant, to say the least, since I have used the protocol in a modified fashion for quite some time, and check the WOD daily.
If you call understanding the basics dogmatic, then yes. If you dont understand what crossfit does, you really should not be debating it. Pretty simple. You are on a Crossfit board and describing posts that we give you in return as general/non-specific. LOL If you would actually pay attention to what we're telling you, you'd understand that Crossfit specializes in the general.

Secondly, you smell eerily similar to a troll right now. It appears that you are trying to make this personal now and playing your drama queen card. I got news for you: you play with fire, expect to get burned. Challenging something that works isn't very easy, so if you can't stand the cold, getting in the heat isn't a direction you want to go.

Last edited by Charles Whitworth : 12-11-2008 at 04:38 PM. Reason: grammar fixes
 
Old 12-12-2008, 03:05 AM   #194
Alex Europa
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Re: Charles Poliquin on Crossfit

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Originally Posted by Daniel Barulich View Post
One of Polquins main gripes is the use of high rep Olympic lifting for metabolic conditioning in the Crossfit protocol. His logic is that the Olympic lifts are best suited for increasing explosiveness in the low rep range when form is emphasized.
So athletes don't need to be able to generate sub-maximal levels of explosive power while fatigued? Of course they do. Our criticism of Poliquin's criticism is that he hasn't done his research on the subject and is spewing weak sauce arguments that belong on bodybuilding.com, not in an article by an expert. Has Poliquin ever done a high rep O-lift workout like "Grace" or "Isabel?" I'm going to go out on a limb and say No. The demands of those workouts is well beyond a simple metabolic conditioning stimulus: the ability to maintain explosive power, balance, coordination, agility, etc... while facing ever increasing levels of fatigue is unparalleled due to the HIGHLY TECHNICAL NATURE of the lifts. This is what makes such workouts so great and why they should not be avoided. Poliquin simply cannot understand this if he hasn't actually put his money where his mouth is. Is doing 30 135-lbs Clean & Jerks dangerous? Sure, if you're not experienced enough. But so are most worthwhile things in life. If we just stuck to doing things that were safe or easy, life would be pretty dull. CrossFit empowers people to make their own decisions as to whether or not they should attempt the WODs as Rx'd. I can see an ethical argument against this practice, but I personally feel that it is the best part of the program - making people think for themselves.

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Originally Posted by Daniel Barulich View Post
Along with this flaw, he points out, is that a one weekend cert isn't sufficient time to train a coach to "coach" the O-Lifts, and thus, dangerous to prescribe to an inexperienced athlete.
Nor are med-school or the police academy solely sufficient for creating doctors or police officers. Internships and probation programs are required to take the trainees from "basic" to "professional" levels. Obviously, the doctors and police officers in training are practicing their trade on the public, with a significant chance of injury to others. Poliquin's assertion that people shouldn't train the O-lifts after a 2-day seminar makes me wonder how he expects anyone to ever do ANYTHING. Everyone has to start somewhere, and the last time I checked, people aren't dropping like flies in affiliates around the globe. In fact, I would say that CrossFit as a whole is doing an amazing job of developing athletes that move pretty damn well, especially when one considers the incredible amount of criticism outside the community regarding the certification process - by people who (not surprisingly) have not attended said certifications. Lastly, the vast majority of people that attend a cert are not new to exercise and are likely attending it as a FOUNDATION (which is precisely what a Level 1 certification is intended to be) and will continue to seek additional guidance and knowledge. Learning doesn't stop the moment one leaves a cert, instead the thirst for knowledge grows exponentially.

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Originally Posted by Daniel Barulich View Post
I believe he also mentions one of the WODs using Deadlifts and running in succession, stating it is risky to perform one activity after the other due to the tightening of the hamstrings.
Again, I default to situations where pulling/pushing and running are required in sport or real life: football linemen going for a block then having to chase after an opponent that just intercepted a pass or the soldier in the battlefield trying to get their fallen brother out of the line of fire. There are countless examples of this. By Poliquin's standards, these activities are also "risky," and therefore shouldn't be done. We cannot control which muscles will be fatigued outside of the gym, and training the body to function while under duress is a critical skill that is more often than not overlooked in the training of athletes under the guise of "safety."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Barulich View Post
That is perfectly legitimate and well articulated criticism.
Not if the critic lacks even a basic understanding of the program and hasn't actually (properly) utilized its principles. Would you listen to someone say that the Westside Barbell methods don't work simply because he/she couldn't get them to work on their clients? I hope not. Has Poliquin ever personally seen an individual injured while performing "Grace" or said deadlift/running WOD? Not likely. Has he ever attended a CrossFit certification or stepped foot into a CrossFit affiliate? Again, considering his obvious lack of understanding, not likely. Therefore his assertions can't even be held up to the level of hearsay, and are merely baseless conjecture.

Is that dogmatic enough for you?

- Alex
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Last edited by Alex Europa : 12-12-2008 at 03:11 AM.
 
Old 12-12-2008, 08:39 AM   #195
Christian Gotcher
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Re: Charles Poliquin on Crossfit

Another part of this, Daniel, is that much smarter people than me have already addressed every issue you're talking about and every issue Poliquin is talking about. This is like calling the kipping pullup cheating- it's beating a dead horse.

Coaches Glassman/Rippetoe/Wolff discussed high rep Olympic lifting in CF Radio 3.5 (as well as a number of other articles and forum posts)

This "cleans then deadlifts=bad" and "deadlift then running=bad" is another example of dogma on the level of the common gym-goer's sacred"Back/Chest-Bi/Tri-Legs/Shoulder" program (which works on the same 'safety' principle), and has, again, already been addressed in at least a dozen articles, lectures, and interviews.

The issue of the validity of a 2-day certificate and the actual, on-the-beaches practice of CF has been beaten to death in this thread alone as well as some of the fundamental CFJ articles ("What makes a good trainer," "Virtuosity," etc)

Simply put, you have not added to the discussion. You are asking questions that have already been answered and either haven't spent the time to look at the answers that have been given or don't care to address them. Like Charles said, you don't know the basics of the program.

BTW, great post, Alex.
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Last edited by Christian Gotcher : 12-12-2008 at 08:41 AM.
 
Old 12-12-2008, 09:38 AM   #196
Aushion Chatman
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Re: Charles Poliquin on Crossfit

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Originally Posted by Alex Europa View Post
Lastly, the vast majority of people that attend a cert are not new to exercise and are likely attending it as a FOUNDATION (which is precisely what a Level 1 certification is intended to be) and will continue to seek additional guidance and knowledge. Learning doesn't stop the moment one leaves a cert, instead the thirst for knowledge grows exponentially.

- Alex
Pretty good stuff here Alex, that thirst for knowledge is exactly what all the certifications (that I've attended) are good at producing inside of attendees.
 
Old 12-12-2008, 01:47 PM   #197
Phillip Garrison
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Re: Charles Poliquin on Crossfit

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Originally Posted by Charles Whitworth View Post
You do not appear to know what Crossfit does, so that's why the answers are basic



Hi rep schemes have their purpose. Peaking programs start with higher rep schemes, then mid range, then lower rep ranges. This is not new, its been around for a while. I doubt very seriously Poliquin does not know this. It appears he is simply trying to discredit a philosophy.



LOL and the average gymrat that doesnt get his coaching advice but subscribes to his beliefs, writings, and philosophy is still using the wrong form. Along with the millions in the gym that use bad form because "Mr. big biceps/no calves gymrat" said it was the right way. Seriously, this is quite a simple excuse for Poliquin to use to maintain his "expert aura" and a fat wallet--not hard to see through at all.



If you call understanding the basics dogmatic, then yes. If you dont understand what crossfit does, you really should not be debating it. Pretty simple. You are on a Crossfit board and describing posts that we give you in return as general/non-specific. LOL If you would actually pay attention to what we're telling you, you'd understand that Crossfit specializes in the general.

Secondly, you smell eerily similar to a troll right now. It appears that you are trying to make this personal now and playing your drama queen card. I got news for you: you play with fire, expect to get burned. Challenging something that works isn't very easy, so if you can't stand the cold, getting in the heat isn't a direction you want to go.
Most Olympic programs do start with higher reps, but certaily nothing as high as CF. In workouts with high rep cleans or snatches I modify them to lower reps. I also agree that a weekend seminar is not sufficient to suddenly be a "coach"
 
Old 12-12-2008, 02:00 PM   #198
David Reed
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Re: Charles Poliquin on Crossfit

20 pages about the criticism from some guy who clearly doesn't understand what CrossFit is?
 
Old 12-12-2008, 02:10 PM   #199
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Re: Charles Poliquin on Crossfit

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20 pages about the criticism from some guy who clearly doesn't understand what CrossFit is?
Chuck is a talented coach who's trained lots of elite athletes, but like any S&C coach including me, or Glassman his way isn't perfect.
 
Old 12-12-2008, 02:28 PM   #200
Christian Gotcher
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Re: Charles Poliquin on Crossfit

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I also agree that a weekend seminar is not sufficient to suddenly be a "coach"
So would I. For that matter, anyone who advertises themselves as a "head trainer" or opens their own gym with nothing except the knowledge of a Level 1 Cert under their belt is as irresponsible as someone what takes a weekend seminar in karate, opens a dojo, and calls themselves a sensei. I think most people here have already said that or would agree with that because it's only a basic primer of knowledge...
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