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Old 01-07-2008, 04:09 AM   #31
Alicia Michel
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Re: How Has Paleo Worked For You?

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Originally Posted by Kirez Reynolds View Post
Part of the reason I'm confessing and mentioning my carb cravings... I've been aware of and sympathetic to and trying to adopt Paleo since 1999. This is because I have a background in evolutionary psychology.

And the carb cravings are one of the hottest contention points that most people experience which may suggest that Paleo is not completely sound.

...

The natural economics of food production --- and, well, demand --- has further driven our food sources toward processed foods relying ever more on agricultural and manufactured sources.

At the same time, life expectancy has soared, far exceeding the period of time during which we were able to get by well enough on these mismatched foods.

...

Recent work on human evolution has shown that, not only have selection pressures continued heavily since the paleolithic period (10,000 to 2.5 million years ago), but human evolution may actually have accelerated.

I haven't read nearly enough on Paleo, so my outline of the theory may be incomplete. But to my understanding, the theory is driving a technology on a very shaky scientific foundation.

The body is so much wiser than our best scientists and philosophers. Of course we cannot trust the wisdom of all our immediate and urgent cravings and wishes ---- who would complete a single tabata if we did? --- but I am driven to wonder whether paleo is wholly sound, based in part on my own experience trying to use it.
Hi Kirez, were you wondering whether we can actually do at least alright on higher carbs and get them from sources like grains because of evolution?

If so, to add on to what Susie said about the French and Okinawans, Steven Low and I in another thread discussed very briefly our experiences with carb sources. Both of us do not suffer any adverse effects when we eat lots of rice or noodles, but not so with bread. I grew up eating lots of rice, and so did Steven I think. A couple of other Asian friends have told me that they get huge and fat very easily with bread, but not so with rice. Although some Asian friends eat lots of bread and still remain skinny.
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Old 01-07-2008, 05:06 AM   #32
Sarena Kopciel
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Re: How Has Paleo Worked For You?

I also recommend this book called Play as if Your Life Depends on It. Takes the paleo type thepry into the fitness world!
link w/f/s

Last edited by Sarena Kopciel : 01-07-2008 at 05:09 AM.
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Old 01-07-2008, 10:54 AM   #33
Robert Wolf
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Re: How Has Paleo Worked For You?

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Originally Posted by Craig Brown View Post
About carb lust. If I am getting this, I eat even less of them. For me lust for carbs means I'm not eating clean enough.

Craig
That is SPOT on. It is also an indicator of how "successful" ones last meal was. Stress and sleep deprivation can also cause carb craving, perhaps not surprisingly, via decreased insulin sensitivity. If the meal is constructed properly and the lifestyle issues are squared away we don't see carb cravings.

It's a pretty easy check list:
1-eating paleo Zone? Yep, but still craving carbs. Solution: Decrease amount of dense carb sources. tinker.

2-Still having problems? Yep.
Solution-99% of the time this individual is chronically sleep deprived. fix that, and you fix carb cravings.
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Old 01-07-2008, 11:55 AM   #34
Kirez Reynolds
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Re: How Has Paleo Worked For You?

Wow! Robert, I appreciate this. When I went strict Paleo in June-July, it was fine for the first two months -- felt great, and I was thrilled to be in a place where I *could* eat Paleo (for the first time in two years -- try it in central asia sometime, without the luxury of a supplied FOB, without even MREs). After that I faced intense stress -- I'm afraid it wouldn't be believable, and it's too complicated, so I won't go into it. I stopped sleeping normally in September and for the last 3-4 months can scarcely sleep more than 2-3 hours a night. During this time I got the carb cravings; I had other symptoms of depression as well.

It's getting better now; I've settled down, got a stable situation for a little while, my wife is with me, and soon I'll be able to train again.
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Old 01-07-2008, 12:13 PM   #35
Brandon Oto
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Re: How Has Paleo Worked For You?

Hey, it's Rob!
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Old 01-07-2008, 04:01 PM   #36
Amy Crawford
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Re: How Has Paleo Worked For You?

I've been doing paleo/IF since mid November, and I really like it. I haven't had many cravings, but I have decided that when I am going to "cheat," it's going to be damn good!

For IFing, I fast for about 16-19 hours 3 times a week, about 20 once a week, and eat regularly the other 3 days (although much lighter during my usual fast times as I'm just not that hungry). I almost always break my fast with walnuts and/or almonds and some fruit. I know some would say I should break it with a high GI food, but it seems to be working for me.

I brought the IF in to things because it was ligistically easier for me - I found breakfast to be a bear with paleo.

I've lost a little fat (didn't really need to) and stayed about the same weight (gained a couple over the holidays ... lots of alcohol!). PRs are improving, but I've also been training more.

Omnivore's Dilemma is great - you definitely won't view food the same again, or at least I don't. I'm currently reading Animal, Vegetable, Miracle, and I really like it. It's made me rething some of my paleo choices, in so much as trying to eat more local foods. In my mind it's similar to Sue's comments - real food. We're starting to make Friday night pizza night - not take out, but home made, including the dough for the crust, pizza. Yes, it's grains and cheese, but with a little work on my part, we can buy local flour and cheese. We already have 2 freezers full of local meat.

Anyway, my $.03 (I like to give myself just a little more credit!).
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Old 01-07-2008, 04:46 PM   #37
Jay Cohen
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Re: How Has Paleo Worked For You?

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Originally Posted by Amy Crawford View Post
I've been doing paleo/IF since mid November, and I really like it. I haven't had many cravings, but I have decided that when I am going to "cheat," it's going to be damn good!

For IFing, I fast for about 16-19 hours 3 times a week, about 20 once a week, and eat regularly the other 3 days (although much lighter during my usual fast times as I'm just not that hungry). I almost always break my fast with walnuts and/or almonds and some fruit. I know some would say I should break it with a high GI food, but it seems to be working for me.

I brought the IF in to things because it was ligistically easier for me - I found breakfast to be a bear with paleo.

I've lost a little fat (didn't really need to) and stayed about the same weight (gained a couple over the holidays ... lots of alcohol!). PRs are improving, but I've also been training more.

Omnivore's Dilemma is great - you definitely won't view food the same again, or at least I don't. I'm currently reading Animal, Vegetable, Miracle, and I really like it. It's made me rething some of my paleo choices, in so much as trying to eat more local foods. In my mind it's similar to Sue's comments - real food. We're starting to make Friday night pizza night - not take out, but home made, including the dough for the crust, pizza. Yes, it's grains and cheese, but with a little work on my part, we can buy local flour and cheese. We already have 2 freezers full of local meat.

Anyway, my $.03 (I like to give myself just a little more credit!).
Amy, nice job on Paleo eating. Here is a recipe from Kim's blog for a Paleo pizza:

Paleo Pizza Crust
4 oz chicken breast
1 tbsp almond flour
1 tbsp buckwheat flour
tsp non-alum baking powder
1 egg
1 egg white
Spices to taste (basil, oregano, garlic, pepper)

Preheat oven to 350 degrees.
Grease 9 pie pan with oil olive and dust with buckwheat flour.
Boil chicken until done. Cut chicken into small pieces.
Whisk eggs. Add in almond flour, buckwheat flour, baking powder, and spices.
Combine all ingredients in food processor or blender. Mix until you have a stiff batter.
Spread into pan.
Bake 30 minutes at 350 degrees. Until light brown and firm.

Calories 338; Carbs 7%, Protein 57%, Fat 35%
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Old 01-07-2008, 05:34 PM   #38
Amy Crawford
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Re: How Has Paleo Worked For You?

Thanks Jay. I'll have to try that. First I'll try it on myself ... I don't know how happy my 2 and 4 year olds would be if they didn't like the already pumped up Pizza Night.
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Old 01-07-2008, 09:19 PM   #39
Kirez Reynolds
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Re: How Has Paleo Worked For You?

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Originally Posted by Alicia Zhuang View Post
Hi Kirez, were you wondering whether we can actually do at least alright on higher carbs and get them from sources like grains because of evolution?
- - - -
sources. Both of us do not suffer any adverse effects when we eat lots of rice or noodles, but not so with bread. I grew up eating lots of rice, and so did Steven I think. A couple of other Asian friends have told me that they get huge and fat very easily with bread, but not so with rice.
Thanks Alicia, this is interesting and I've never read anything about it.

In high school I had stellar performance as an athlete, and at that time I was reading Runner's World and following a high-carb diet; but I had also concluded that of all the starches, rice was the best, so my diet consisted mostly of rice and stir fry vegetables. (Hmmm, I also got bread in the form of PB&J sandwiches, though...) I could never afford to eat meat until about the year 2000, so that was also an issue, and looking globally at nutrition problems, THIS is the largest factor. It's thankful that China and India have abundant rice, or they'd experience much larger scale conversion to processed foods including simple grains & breads.

It's very frustrating that for nutrition, nobody does (perhaps, nobody can do) the kind of large-numbers, longitudinal study that would be required to suss out all the variable factors - particularly where it comes to athletic performance. Looking at anthropological, demographic stats is the best we can do. I think this is why we're so often comparing one incomplete *theory* to another.

It's clear that many athletes perform fabulously on bad diets. So it doesn't really answer the questions we're after. For me, longevity is more important. I know I can perform extremely well on many diets, and I'm not looking to be a world class competitor. It's less clear how those diets over the very long run assist my overall health.

My sine qua non for a diet is decreased insulin response -- maximized insulin sensitivity / minimized insulin requirements. For years, distance running helped me with this (er, I think so, anyway). My take on paleo is that I'm simply eliminating most all carbs, with the the occasional lapse on fruit juices & small amounts of fruit (kiwis, bananas, perhaps melons and berries). I may eliminate the juice altogether now.

I wonder if these 'occasional lapses' are a significant problem. I still have a lot to learn.

Last edited by Kirez Reynolds : 01-07-2008 at 09:39 PM. Reason: Stupid misspelling! Got Alicia's name wrong!
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Old 01-07-2008, 10:03 PM   #40
Craig Brown
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Re: How Has Paleo Worked For You?

Good call on the juice- it's an issue for me (or was). Dropped it except as a treat last year.

I find that rice & rice noodles are pretty neutral for me. If I have friends in town I certainly go out with them, but usually for Thai or Sushi, and don't have any issues at all.

I think we can fall into a weird place where we use our 'cheat' space as rewards (cake & sugar laden treats) as if our eating is penance. I think it's important to find ways of living that you actually enjoy immensely, be it food or exercise or simply how you choose to spend your time. If you are suffering (beyond the basic 'change is hard' stuff) I would look for a better way. For me the way I eat is fine, fun, easy, rewarding AND satisfying. Your mileage will certainly vary.

Craig
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