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Fitness Theory and Practice. CrossFit's rationale & foundations. Who is fit? What is fitness?

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Old 09-20-2010, 08:42 AM   #41
Rebecca Roth
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Re: Military says You’re Too Flabby For CrossFit

I think something that is being missed here throughout the conversation is the internal aspect of taking on a program like crossfit. You seem to be forgetting that those of us here made the choice to actively pursue this training method because no matter wether we were in shape or out of shape, we believed in the training method and had personal commitment to following it. For someone joining the military you might say their enlistment is enough to be their commitment to physical fitness, but there is a huge difference between someone whose goals are elsewhere vs someone who has mental buy-in to push themself to failure in every workout. That is the difference between the person that only does the bare minimum and the person that wants to get their form perfect or hit those full depth squats.
Having the internal motivation behind following a program like this is really almost required; though it helps, the external motivation of a DI or trainer yelling at you is really not enough to get someone to really drive themself the way we try to during a WOD.
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Old 09-20-2010, 09:36 AM   #42
Carl Amolat
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Re: Military says You’re Too Flabby For CrossFit

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Originally Posted by Rebecca Roth View Post
I think something that is being missed here throughout the conversation is the internal aspect of taking on a program like crossfit. You seem to be forgetting that those of us here made the choice to actively pursue this training method because no matter wether we were in shape or out of shape, we believed in the training method and had personal commitment to following it. For someone joining the military you might say their enlistment is enough to be their commitment to physical fitness, but there is a huge difference between someone whose goals are elsewhere vs someone who has mental buy-in to push themself to failure in every workout. That is the difference between the person that only does the bare minimum and the person that wants to get their form perfect or hit those full depth squats.
Having the internal motivation behind following a program like this is really almost required; though it helps, the external motivation of a DI or trainer yelling at you is really not enough to get someone to really drive themself the way we try to during a WOD.
That's why the AIT setting with the trainees divided into groups by their physical scores from Basic is the better time to introduce them to the CrossFit methodology.
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Last edited by Carl Amolat : 09-20-2010 at 09:39 AM.
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Old 09-20-2010, 09:49 AM   #43
John Stone
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Re: Military says You’re Too Flabby For CrossFit

This thread is an interesting read. On one side of the debate are the military and ex-military, pretty well united in the thought that basic/boot camp is not the proper place/time for a CF-type program (but post-basic training like infantry school / combat training / MOS schools are perfect for CF) -- and then non-military CrossFitters that believe (based on ???) that boot camp is perfect for CrossFit.

I'm in the former group because I agree with previous statements to the effect that boot camp is not a physical / combat preparedness course -- it is a stress test / mental training tool that is the first step towards physical preparedness.

CF under sleep-deprivation / calorie deprivation / poor oversight conditions just doesn't make sense to me.
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Old 09-20-2010, 11:05 AM   #44
Ben Schill
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Re: Military says You’re Too Flabby For CrossFit

Two major factors affecting the quality of military recruits:
1. Level of Education
2. Upbringing

Group learning environments must cater to the least common denominator. The least common denominator today is different than it was 15 years ago, which was different than it was 30 years ago, etc. The number of "educated" professionals who don't know the difference between "loose" and "lose", "your" and "you're", etc., is embarrassing.

People with a weak upbringing would sue their neighbor for slipping on their neighbor's icy sidewalk (you know who you are, and I'm sorry you hate your father/mother/whoever). Once in the military, these people choose to go through the painful process of unlearning their victimhood, or become a boat anchor on the services (pun intended). Sadly, the military feels it must take steps to protect these victims (even from themselves). Case in point: The seaman who sued the CrossFit gym in VA - this man clearly couldn't handle the responsibility of taking care of himself.

Basic training can indoctrinate someone into a new environment, but unlearning a lifetime of misplaced values or partial squats takes a lot longer than six to nine weeks.
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Old 09-20-2010, 11:35 AM   #45
Troy Becker
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Re: Military says You’re Too Flabby For CrossFit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rebecca Roth View Post
I think something that is being missed here throughout the conversation is the internal aspect of taking on a program like crossfit. You seem to be forgetting that those of us here made the choice to actively pursue this training method because no matter wether we were in shape or out of shape, we believed in the training method and had personal commitment to following it. For someone joining the military you might say their enlistment is enough to be their commitment to physical fitness, but there is a huge difference between someone whose goals are elsewhere vs someone who has mental buy-in to push themself to failure in every workout. That is the difference between the person that only does the bare minimum and the person that wants to get their form perfect or hit those full depth squats.
Having the internal motivation behind following a program like this is really almost required; though it helps, the external motivation of a DI or trainer yelling at you is really not enough to get someone to really drive themself the way we try to during a WOD.
If you join an organization, voluntarily or not, whose job it is to kill the enemy and the consequences of not doing so well enough are quite likely being killed, motivation is irrelevant. They HAVE to do what it takes. Their commanders are duty bound to make sure that they push themselves, the only trick is having them do it intelligently- meaning scaled appropriately- to yield the fastest and greatest results for all.

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Originally Posted by Ben Schill View Post
Two major factors affecting the quality of military recruits:
1. Level of Education
2. Upbringing

Group learning environments must cater to the least common denominator. The least common denominator today is different than it was 15 years ago, which was different than it was 30 years ago, etc. The number of "educated" professionals who don't know the difference between "loose" and "lose", "your" and "you're", etc., is embarrassing.

People with a weak upbringing would sue their neighbor for slipping on their neighbor's icy sidewalk (you know who you are, and I'm sorry you hate your father/mother/whoever). Once in the military, these people choose to go through the painful process of unlearning their victimhood, or become a boat anchor on the services (pun intended). Sadly, the military feels it must take steps to protect these victims (even from themselves). Case in point: The seaman who sued the CrossFit gym in VA - this man clearly couldn't handle the responsibility of taking care of himself.

Basic training can indoctrinate someone into a new environment, but unlearning a lifetime of misplaced values or partial squats takes a lot longer than six to nine weeks.
You are right about that-and the military needs to STOP worrying about everyone's feeeelings and start worrying about their capabilities. I thought the military was supposed to be made up of these things called "soldiers," and I thought soldiers were supposed to be tough, hardened, trained, disciplined warriors- that's still the case isn't it?
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Old 09-20-2010, 11:47 AM   #46
Brock Cochran
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Re: Military says You’re Too Flabby For CrossFit

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Originally Posted by William A Cantrell View Post
I thinks CrossFit being listed with P90x and Insanity as the Big 3 being studied is bad fro the CrossFit name.
I agree. Totally different methods.
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Old 09-20-2010, 11:55 AM   #47
John Stone
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Re: Military says You’re Too Flabby For CrossFit

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Originally Posted by Troy Becker View Post
If you join an organization, voluntarily or not, whose job it is to kill the enemy and the consequences of not doing so well enough are quite likely being killed, motivation is irrelevant. They HAVE to do what it takes. Their commanders are duty bound to make sure that they push themselves, the only trick is having them do it intelligently- meaning scaled appropriately- to yield the fastest and greatest results for all.
It has already been said several times, but I guess one more time won't hurt: basic training is not the place where people are trained for combat.

Basic training is where recruits are mentally tested while learning basic things like following orders, formations, and how to fire a weapon.

Training that comes after graduation from basic (Army Infantry School / Marine Combat Training School / Battalion OpFor training / et cetera) is where new soldiers / Marines learn to survive and win in combat.

The ability to scale properly has little to do with it -- as several people (myself included) have stated, the entire structure of Basic is antithetical to CrossFit (sleep deprivation, food deprivation, low levels of supervision, pushing until breaking point as often as possible).

Could some CF-type programming be included into Basic? Probably -- especially things heavy on endurance and BW movements. But that's what the study is being done for.
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Old 09-20-2010, 12:42 PM   #48
Nathan Spreitler
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Re: Military says You’re Too Flabby For CrossFit

I am a Captain in the Army. Crossfit is a great program, and it could be adapted to use by the military but it is tough to make it an effective program for day to day PT.

I think that in some places crossfit gets a bad name because of poor implementation. Military PT is generally to one standard, you run in formation and if you fall out you failed to meet the standard. So PT sessions are generally one size fits all, and when dealing with crossfit like workouts that will lead to injury.

Ego is a factor, people leading PT often want to show just how tough they are and they don't have the training to evaluate individual ability.

Equipment is a factor. You have Soldiers doing crossfit bodyweight training but that is just one part of crossfit. Doing that daily for PT will lead likely to overtraining.

It can be scaled, but not every Soldier is motivated enough to push themselves so if you let Soldiers scale to their ability many won't do much at all and won't improve.

One of the biggest issues is time. For most units PT times are dictated either as an hour or 90 minutes every morning. That time has to be filled, and if you do something like Cindy in 20 minutes you still have at least 40 minutes to do something else. Unless there is buy in from higher you don't want to be the PT group that the Sergeant Major sees stretching at 0700. So people try to fill the whole hour, and that leads to injury.

Crossfit is great in small motivated groups, but for widespread use on a daily basis it isn't likely to work well without a complete change of policy from the highest levels down.

It isn't that Soldiers aren't capable of doing Crossfit, but in general the implementation is poorly done which gives Crossfit a bad name.
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Old 09-20-2010, 12:58 PM   #49
Carl Amolat
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Re: Military says You’re Too Flabby For CrossFit

Quote:
You are right about that-and the military needs to STOP worrying about everyone's feeeelings and start worrying about their capabilities. I thought the military was supposed to be made up of these things called "soldiers," and I thought soldiers were supposed to be tough, hardened, trained, disciplined warriors- that's still the case isn't it?
Just look at those people that complete programs such as Ranger, SFAS, Sniper School, Sapper, and Air Assault and those that complete combat tours in places like Afghanistan and Iraq before you start throwing comments of that nature. Those are tough, hardened, trained and disciplined warriors. Is that a sufficient answer to your query?

Also, Troy Becker, are you former military or in the military at all? And if so have you deployed?

There's a difference in being mindful of soldiers' welfare, after all a soldier with his proverbial ducks in a row back home is likely to give you good performance in the field and excessive political correctness granted but totally disregarding peoples' feelings is not a good idea when it comes to leadership anywhere. Granted one has to put these things aside at times, but if you're having to be a bully to lead someone then you have failed as a leader.
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Last edited by Carl Amolat : 09-20-2010 at 01:16 PM.
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Old 09-20-2010, 02:32 PM   #50
Hector Santiago
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Re: Military says You’re Too Flabby For CrossFit

for some of you that are wondering how to sell Crossfit, First, teach the Movements, you have to know the movements and what bad stuff to look for, example for the Squats, set up position, lumbar curve maintain, weight on heels, depth below parallel, kness track over feet. explain that stuff to the group. you have to Translate Civilian talk into Army vocabulary, example for Fran which is in the Civilian world transfered into military terms, task is to conduct 21 x 95 LB thrusters, 21 pull ups, 15 x 95 LB thrusters, 15 Pull ups, 9 x 95 LB thrusters and 9 pull ups, Conditions: Given 95 LB, a Pull up bar and a motivated group of Soldiers, Standard is to complete everything in less than 5 minutes. sometimes you got to give them a reality check and let them feel a little pain. you got to know the Answers to every questions if not ask for advice to one of the L2 coaches here like Pat Sherwood or any of the L2 coaches know almost everything, example why do you have to go below parallel do a squat, come back and say because that's a natural movement that you do in everyday of your life, example will be when you do a number 2., then have a group or maybe a person do a workout with you, Example will be Fran, or Diane, Maybe Tabata. before they do the Workout, make sure you do it, and come out with an Elite score with good form. example will be Fran as RX'd under 5 minutes, Diane as Rx'D under 5 minutes, Tabata with more than a 500 Score. Cindy more than 28 rounds, Complete Chelsea, JI Jane, or what ever WOD, nutrition plays a big role but any way that's how I sold it to my chain of command and that's how I am going to sell it to where I am going next month to be station at Fort Jackson, SC. some people might not like it but Oh well i guess some people are more weak minded than others and that's a fact. In the Mean time, Lets enjoy life and be happy, although not everyone is happy though. with or without Crossfit.

As far as when to Introduce Crossfit to Recruits I think it will be perfect during the 0 week of basic Training, something like the Level 1 cert course but instead the Army will have to just have the drill instructors teach it, the knowledge has to be spread all across. anyway I though I share my 2 cents I have being in the Army almost 11 years, 5 deployments, got hurt in one of those deployments, and i have never being happier becuase of the main site WODs. thank you guys from HQ for everything that you do for everyone, specially when it is for free.

SSG Santi.

I forgot to say, I vote for Pat Sherwood for President.
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