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Old 07-16-2010, 06:12 AM   #91
Steven Price
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Re: Study finds correlation between C.O.G. and Speed

Aushion, Me thinks you are opposed to either micro or macro evolution. You have been countered in your every position by data. You have offered none other than anecdote. I've written at least 10 paragraphs summarizing 100 years of research. To refer to population genetics/evolution/anthropology as "pseudo science" is insulting in the extreme. I am outa' here.
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Old 07-16-2010, 06:16 AM   #92
Aushion Chatman
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Re: Study finds correlation between C.O.G. and Speed

Well, I said outright that I was opposed to macro evolution...

That's why I said it was getting circular, the "data" offered has been helpful to understand positions but not bulletproof by any stretch IMO.
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Old 07-16-2010, 01:30 PM   #93
Katherine Derbyshire
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Re: Study finds correlation between C.O.G. and Speed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aushion Chatman View Post
Well, I said outright that I was opposed to macro evolution...

That's why I said it was getting circular, the "data" offered has been helpful to understand positions but not bulletproof by any stretch IMO.
Then please offer another hypothesis that explains the *abundant* evidence of microevolution, and does not rely on a divine power.

That's all science is, really, is a cycle of hypothesis->data->new hypothesis. It's not perfect, but no other tool does a better job of explaining the world.

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Old 07-16-2010, 05:20 PM   #94
Rafe Kelley
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Re: Study finds correlation between C.O.G. and Speed

Aushion no offense but I do not believe that you have a empirical reason for not believing in evolution I think it is faith based and therefore no amount of argument will be useful. Succinctly I will say all of modern biology and the myriad technologies that arise from it is based on evolutionary theory.

If you are truly interested in understanding evolution(there is no actual debate in the field of biology) there are thousands of resources available to I have no interest in summarizing them for you.

Population genetics has unequivocally shown that there systematic genetic differences between populations of different regions, this corelates strongly with what was historical called racial or sub species variation when looking at morphological traits. It takes only relative small number of genes to determine continent of origin at this point, futhermore there is clear evidence of selection in different races.

Lactase persistence arose separately in west eurasia and east africa and has selectively swept in the last 7,000 years, pigment genes have undergone differing recent northeast asia and northern europe resulting a net lightening of skin tone as well as the multi-hued eyes and hair of northern europeans also with in the last 7,000 years. Mysostatin regulatory genes have been shown to have been under recent selective pressure in sub saharan africa, and there are an incredible number of immune system related genes which show differing selection patterns in varius populations.

The list goes on and on, more traits are being found to have been under recent selective pressure in differing populations all the time.

Race exists and the differences between races have been increasing over the last 10,000 years. A good overview of this is the ten thousand year explosion by gregory cochran and henry harpending.

Regarding athletic ability. There are huge number of traits that effect athletic capacity for any given activity, long legs and long shins are a huge advantage in running, jumping, and kicking and disadvantage in swimming, weight lifting and wrestling. High levels of fast twitch muscle fiber are advantageous in anaerobically dominated activities like sprinting, weight lifting, and gymnastics, were as high levels of slow twitch muscle fiber are advantages in distance running, biking, and swimming. Height is an advantage in basketball, high jump, football, and striking based combat sports, lack of height is an advantage in long distance running, gymnastics, and ping pong . Low body fat is advantage in running, jumping, swimming, and gymnastics. Higher bodyfat can be advantageous in weightlifting, and very long distance swimming.

All of these traits are distributed discontinously across various populations. There is reason that successful sprinters are almost all west african(low body fat, high muscle mass, long legs, long shins, slender lower legs, high levels of fast twitch muscle fiber). That the kenyans and very specifically the kalinjin dominate distance running(slim bone structure very long limbs low muscle mass, low body fat, high levels of slow twitch fibers). That central eurasian groups tend to dominate weight lifting and wrestling(short legs, heavy musculature) that polynesians are vastly overrepresented in american football(extremely large bone structure, high levels of fast twitch fibers, tall and heavy).

This not to discount environmental factors, Norwegians probably don't have a genetic advantage over English people in cross country skiing they just have lots of chances to ski.

There is also the fact that these things create feedback loops. The best white sprinters come from regions were there are few blacks to compete with, regions like poland, russia, australia, and recently ireland have all been producing world class white sprinters while the US has not(jeremy wariner aside) despite having similar or larger populations of the same genetic backgrounds. Its very likely that there are cultural factors at play increased pressure on blacks to succeed through sport and more avenues for white athletes like skiing, snowboarding, hockey were the entry level expense drives down black participation. There was time for instance when baseball was dominated by american blacks that changed and there is no biological reason for its a clear example of cultural change.

Another factor most people don't account for is developmental rates, blacks mature faster physically then whites, or east asians, so your white or asian kid who might grow up to be super fast may get smoked in 8th grade track by black kids who are ahead of him/her developmental and abandon the sport.

We need to be open to both explanations biological and environmental if we really want to understand the patterns we see in sports just as in life.
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Old 07-16-2010, 06:02 PM   #95
Rafe Kelley
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Re: Study finds correlation between C.O.G. and Speed

Found this trolling google scholar good overview of anthropometric differences between american blacks and whites. http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/ajcn;71/6/1392
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Old 07-19-2010, 11:41 AM   #96
Aushion Chatman
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Re: Study finds correlation between C.O.G. and Speed

I was done with this thread, but Rafe you bring up a point that I whole-heartedly disagree with. There are MANY more people other than just Christians who refute evolution. The problem is if you say you don't believe in evolution people automatically assume you are a "fairy-tale believing, unscientifically minded person". Which is an ignorant view at best and at worst simply mean-spirited.

I have three major problems with evolution being FACT:

1) The problem of proof - all that data that we have discussed and that were provided via wiki and still we can't sit and empirically detail how evolution theory is bullet proof (but by definition no "theory" is I think people forget it is still just a theory probably because of point #3 below).

2) The problem of chaos - selection infers order IMO which requires energy. Chance cannot drive order, chance does not have energy.

3) The problem of dominance - evolution has stamped out all detractors, no other positions are taught in schools...holes in the theory are glossed over, no one is teaching kids to critically determine how sound a theory it really is.

I find all of these issues to have absolutely NOTHING to do with faith, there have been plenty of Bible-believing people that have decided primarily because of evolution that they no longer believe in the Bible's story. Likewise there have been many people who because of some experience has decided to believe a faith-based life view.

So you can't just say I'll never change my mind...that is simply not true.
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Old 07-19-2010, 11:46 AM   #97
Jamie J. Skibicki
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Re: Study finds correlation between C.O.G. and Speed

"selection infers order IMO which requires energy"

No it doesn't. well at least not more energy. Typically, those that are selected use energy more efficiently.
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Old 07-19-2010, 01:25 PM   #98
Allen Tluczek
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Re: Study finds correlation between C.O.G. and Speed

There is no distinction between micro and macro evolution. Evolutionary theory has produced more verified studies and been confirmed by more evidence than any other scientific theory, by a large margin.

"The problem is if you say you don't believe in evolution people automatically assume you are a "fairy-tale believing, unscientifically minded person". Which is an ignorant view at best and at worst simply mean-spirited."
Very true. They just don't study biology.

I had an anthropology professor make a very interesting point concerning race- there are many useful places to use the concept of race. Medicine and forensic anthropology are two good ones. If you want to identify remains and gather further information, using general features to determine ancestry is a good place to start. Using race socially though has almost always had negative consequences, so leave it to the people who need to use it.

Anyways, how about that cog study! Pretty cool, huh?
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Last edited by Allen Tluczek : 07-19-2010 at 01:29 PM. Reason: Ouch- I said criminal anthropology, which apparently has strong ties with eugenics, when I meant forensic anthropology...
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Old 07-19-2010, 03:03 PM   #99
Steven Price
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Re: Study finds correlation between C.O.G. and Speed

Allen, I introduced the terms micro-and macro-evolution to focus the discussion on races--populational diversity. Micro-evolution is a term used to describe gene/chromosomal change below the species level. Macro-evolution refers to species formation and the mechanisms responsible for it. Now, it is "indisputable" amongst the vast majority of biologists that microevolution may result in macroevolution--so if that is what you were saying then we are 100% in agreement. The two terms differ only by scale and time. I introduced the terms in this thread because we were discussing differences amongst races and I didn't want to get us in to a debate on "speciation," "intelligent design," "creationsim," etc. But if the thread goes in that direction, cool! I think we are on the same wave-length. It is a slippery slope, to be sure.

Often times when debating "evolution" you can get the opposition to agree that "micro-evolution" exists, and then make the transition to species formation. However, it has been amply shown that Ashion does not believe that natural selection has been demonstrated, and so any debate on "speciation" is doomed with him, however well documented.
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Old 07-19-2010, 11:11 PM   #100
Jon Houle
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Re: Study finds correlation between C.O.G. and Speed

Wow really interesting stuff guys, great discussion.

I just want to get back to the article and throw a couple of question at you guys that are unrelated to the race/evolution issues were discussing here to get some thoughts on sprinting speed and the results of the study (my questions might related to some POSE theory to which I've never found an answer for).

So here it goes. As the authors of this article states sprinting/running is a continuous process of falling forward (I think POSE is the same theory as well). This doesn't seem to make much sense to me in the first place (Aushion your physics background may be helpful here) since falling is technically in one direction: DOWN. The forward process arises by the athlete pushing off the ground and making adjustments for how much he pushes forward and up (again this is my understanding from my research and experience in sprinting). This process is then repeated and the optimal speed is achieved (for that athlete) through some mix of stride length and stride frequency. Is my thinking on sprinting entirely wrong somehow?

So assuming my thinking is not so far off what makes "black" athletes faster? (I put it in quotes as I do recognize some of the arguments here that black is a very wide net to cast and inaccurate) Someone has pointed out that some ethnicities/nationalities tend to have a greater composition of fast twitch muscles. That combined with a reasonably tall/lean (not skinny but not huge) athlete (I think it would be almost physically impossible for someone my height 5'7'' to run sub 10 without tearing every joint and muscle in my body) with proper flexibility, training and neuro-muscluar adaptation is what now composes a world class sprinter. Is there any scientific evidence to show that other 'non-black' nationalities where tall athletes are found do not these appropriate physical capabilities which I think create fast sprinters? I think the argument for the aid of environmental factors in creating fast runners is not so invalid as some here have stated.

Just a last thought as food for thought: I think we're lucky that Usain Bolt is a stubborn person. Without this trait, he would have never convinced his coaches to run anything less then 400m and we may have never see his awesome records set. Who knows how many other potential great athletes are being held back from their true potential by coaches/parents saying you have to play this sport or focus on school?

Last edited by Jon Houle : 07-19-2010 at 11:13 PM.
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