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Old 06-26-2011, 06:31 PM   #81
Ben Norris
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Re: Bloody torn hands and bloody barbells at Regionals makes CF look dumb.

Let me just start off with the OP. I can understand there is no point tearing up your hands just to prove how tough you are. However there have been WODs that I have done, namingly a hero with 150 Pullups in it where I used more tape than i have ever done in my life BEFORE I started the WOD knowing the high possibility of hand tears and by the time I had finished I had 3 hand tears and used a whole heap more tape.

Sometimes no matter how much taping or preparation you use there will be tears. It is as simple as that. It is something that just happens in Crossfit and would I want HQ to tone down its WODs to prevent this? HELL NO, because then our community becomes "soft." I mean look at it this way if Tony Budding is sitting there thinking " I want 100 pullups in this WOD but since some people out there might tear their hands I think I should keep it to 75. But then somebody could tear their hands up on 75."

This is the problem we are participating in a tough "sport" and injuries happen. I mean in rugby or NFL people get ACL knee damage and 12 months out with a full Knee Reco. I have had 3 hand tears that I trained with 2 days later with a whole heap of tape. Which injury would you rather have?


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Originally Posted by Cody Rice View Post
I completely agree with you, Eric. I think HQ has gone a little off the deep-end on some of these workouts with their method of programming. I mean, yes, I completely understanding "testing elite fitness", but I don't think you need to test an athlete's soft tissue to do it.

Cases in point:
  • 2009 Games: Hell-En (double pyramid Helen) - 126 KBS and 72 pullups = tons of tears including some completely destroyed palms that required gloves and full hand taping for the rest of the weekend
  • 2011 Regionals: 100's - 100 Pullups, 100 KBS = Tons of torn hands (add in heat in S. Central and it gets really bad)
  • 2011 Regionals: Amanda on Day 3 - Completely wrecked athletes (worked backs and torn hands) attempting very technical shoulder-intensive movements leads to very poor form and a high risk of injury

We are competitive athletes and will push ourselves to the absolute limit to win, but workouts dont need to lead to injuries to find the "fittest". Imagine how the competition would change if all the athletes could go 100% and weren't having to work with torn hands.

I hope HQ is working to remedy this type of stuff for the Games... I would hate to see another hand-destroyer in the first or second WOD.
Cody I have already said about your first 2 examples, injuries will happen in competition. No way to avoid it unless we make all of our WOD low rep WODs so nobody could possibely tear their hands.

However your 3rd example is absurd! I mean by your logic there would be very few exercises that you could have in there to do on the 3rd day. No O" Lifting, No heavy lifts, No high skill gymnastics movements, no high impact movements, no high rep movements, because all of these on tired bodies can cause Injuries. In fact in tired bodies pretty much any exercise can cause injuries so should there have only have been 4 WODs? I mean how many athletes did the 5th WOD? How many got injuries?

I am not trying to sound like a hard arse here (I try to avoid hand tears like the plague, as well as trying to avoid all other injuries by using correct technique) but those who got to the regionals are all insane athletes who have had years of training. They know how to do the lifts safely. They know how to tape their hands. Sometimes the imposed demands will go above what their bodies can handle. This happens in real life and is'ant that what crossfit is to prepare us for?
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Old 06-26-2011, 07:18 PM   #82
Eric Montgomery
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Re: Bloody torn hands and bloody barbells at Regionals makes CF look dumb.

If it was one or two people tearing their hands then yes, I'd say there's no need to tone things down. When it's one or two who don't get rips, the problem is with the workout, especially given how bad some of the rips looked. These weren't a single callus falling off, these were people basically losing the entire gripping surface of their hands.
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Old 06-26-2011, 08:20 PM   #83
Ben Norris
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Re: Bloody torn hands and bloody barbells at Regionals makes CF look dumb.

Eric, I was not at the Regionals and I do not know the answer to this. Most of the rips happened on the pullups. Why?

I mean Angie has 100 consecutive pullups and when people do her we do not see that kind of damage. I mean there are plenty of WODs out there with 100K2E, KB Swings, T2B and Pullups (all of these for me sent of warning signs i need to tape) that in training dont seem to cause this kind of serious hand damage from the videos I have watched of firebreathers yet at the regionals everybody seemed to tear as you said VERY VERY BADLY, Including palms coming off

Maybe it was just a combination of the WOD, the pullup bars, the heat, the intensity? I mean I dont know and it would be good to hear from a few guys who were there as to why there was so much carnage on a movement that is quite common: Pullups.
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Old 06-26-2011, 08:30 PM   #84
Mike Hopper
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Re: Bloody torn hands and bloody barbells at Regionals makes CF look dumb.

If you want to act like the CrossFit Games are like any other sport, I won't stop you. But I will say this: any regulated sport requires all blood to be cleaned up and covered before an athlete would be allowed to continue.

I've only had it happen once and that was after a long session of kettlebell swings and hang cleans.
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Old 06-27-2011, 04:43 AM   #85
Charles Applin
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Re: Bloody torn hands and bloody barbells at Regionals makes CF look dumb.

I'll be honest, I stopped at the 40th or so pull-up in the 4th wod. I didn't walk off the stage, so I did stand there while everyone else finished the pull-ups and went on in the WOD. In my mind, I'm thinking "Why tear up my hands anymore for last place and I'm not going on tomorrow anyway".

Then I felt like a wimp because everyone that went on, including the lady I traveled with who physically could not get past 39 pull-ups despite 100+ attempts, carried on as far as they could. They all had ghastly hands. In my mind after the fact, I still think "I could have done more" even if reason still says it would have been stupid. I've walked 4 miles on a broken foot and that wasn't a thing to brag about so maybe I'm glad reason wins out though my ego still takes a hit.

I have to agree with the post that it's not finding the fittest by tearing up people's hands. Few people dislocated shoulders, so that was a non-issue with amanda. Few people fell off the rope, so that's a non-issue with regards to mats. Few people actually keeled over on the 7k hill run, so that's a non-issue there too. However, everyone had ripped and/or bloody hands here. CFHQ knows CrossFitters will push through pain, tears, blood and rips. That doesn't mean they need to induce them with the WODs if it can be avoided. Hopefully this is a major lesson learned.
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Old 06-27-2011, 06:02 AM   #86
Matthew Swartz
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Re: Bloody torn hands and bloody barbells at Regionals makes CF look dumb.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles Applin View Post
I'll be honest, I stopped at the 40th or so pull-up in the 4th wod. I didn't walk off the stage, so I did stand there while everyone else finished the pull-ups and went on in the WOD. In my mind, I'm thinking "Why tear up my hands anymore for last place and I'm not going on tomorrow anyway".

Then I felt like a wimp because everyone that went on, including the lady I traveled with who physically could not get past 39 pull-ups despite 100+ attempts, carried on as far as they could. They all had ghastly hands. In my mind after the fact, I still think "I could have done more" even if reason still says it would have been stupid. I've walked 4 miles on a broken foot and that wasn't a thing to brag about so maybe I'm glad reason wins out though my ego still takes a hit.

I have to agree with the post that it's not finding the fittest by tearing up people's hands. Few people dislocated shoulders, so that was a non-issue with amanda. Few people fell off the rope, so that's a non-issue with regards to mats. Few people actually keeled over on the 7k hill run, so that's a non-issue there too. However, everyone had ripped and/or bloody hands here. CFHQ knows CrossFitters will push through pain, tears, blood and rips. That doesn't mean they need to induce them with the WODs if it can be avoided. Hopefully this is a major lesson learned.
You sound too smart to do crossfit.
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Old 06-27-2011, 10:06 AM   #87
Sean Dunston
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Re: Bloody torn hands and bloody barbells at Regionals makes CF look dumb.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Hopper View Post
If you want to act like the CrossFit Games are like any other sport, I won't stop you. But I will say this: any regulated sport requires all blood to be cleaned up and covered before an athlete would be allowed to continue.

I've only had it happen once and that was after a long session of kettlebell swings and hang cleans.
Combat sports don't -- MMA, boxing, etc.

CF isn't exactly a combat sport, but I think a lot of the CF competitors have the same attitude towards their training and competitions that combat sport competitors do.

You could also liken the CF Games season to the X-Games. You see some pretty dramatic spills in the X-Games, especially in events like the vert pipes with skaters, bikers snowboarders, etc. They crash, go boom, and get back up and go again.
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Old 06-27-2011, 10:54 AM   #88
Jamie Gowens
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Re: Bloody torn hands and bloody barbells at Regionals makes CF look dumb.

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Originally Posted by Stu Christensen View Post
I am impressed with the common sense being put out here by everyone. She did nothing but injure herself further, cause longer time OFF training and cause her body to be less-healthy. The exact OPPOSITE of what CF supposedly stands for. Good work!!

That performance, although gutsy, was ridiculous, stupid, and every judge/trainer/athlete there that stood by and watched her do it should be ashamed. I completely understand being in the "zone" of competing, I've been there - but even I'm not dumb enough to do something like that, and I'm pretty dumb!!
There's absolutely no way I could have been there, as an affiliate, a volunteer, a coach, judge, or anything else. No. Goddamn. Way.
She's an adult, and I know that, but that was stupid. It wasn't cool. It wasn't strong. It wasn't 'heart'. It was pure stupidity. Being a Billy Badass is a great way to get hurt. Truly, permanently, HURT. This should NOT be glorified. I showed my people this video as what NOT to do.
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Originally Posted by Brett Dartt View Post
what ****es me off more is how it was glorified at the end of the video. shame on hq
Shame on HQ indeed. This is NOT how I want my business represented.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cody Rice View Post
I completely agree with you, Eric. I think HQ has gone a little off the deep-end on some of these workouts with their method of programming. I mean, yes, I completely understanding "testing elite fitness", but I don't think you need to test an athlete's soft tissue to do it.

Cases in point:
  • 2009 Games: Hell-En (double pyramid Helen) - 126 KBS and 72 pullups = tons of tears including some completely destroyed palms that required gloves and full hand taping for the rest of the weekend
  • 2011 Regionals: 100's - 100 Pullups, 100 KBS = Tons of torn hands (add in heat in S. Central and it gets really bad)
  • 2011 Regionals: Amanda on Day 3 - Completely wrecked athletes (worked backs and torn hands) attempting very technical shoulder-intensive movements leads to very poor form and a high risk of injury

We are competitive athletes and will push ourselves to the absolute limit to win, but workouts dont need to lead to injuries to find the "fittest". Imagine how the competition would change if all the athletes could go 100% and weren't having to work with torn hands.

I hope HQ is working to remedy this type of stuff for the Games... I would hate to see another hand-destroyer in the first or second WOD.
Don't count on it. Lately, it seems like HQ has gone the route of the stupider the programming, the harder, more damaging, and just all around ****ing dumb, the better for the Games.
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Old 06-27-2011, 11:07 AM   #89
Jamie Gowens
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Re: Bloody torn hands and bloody barbells at Regionals makes CF look dumb.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben Norris View Post
something about not wanting to appear wimpy
It's not one or two people getting some flappers, we're talking about almost ALL competitors coming through with some serious tears on their hands. It's NOT the competitors. It's the programming and possibly the environment. It's totally possible to wreck shop without destroying, literally destroying, the competitors' bodies.
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Old 06-27-2011, 01:20 PM   #90
Stu Christensen
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Re: Bloody torn hands and bloody barbells at Regionals makes CF look dumb.

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Originally Posted by Sean Dunston View Post
Combat sports don't -- MMA, boxing, etc.

CF isn't exactly a combat sport, but I think a lot of the CF competitors have the same attitude towards their training and competitions that combat sport competitors do.

You could also liken the CF Games season to the X-Games. You see some pretty dramatic spills in the X-Games, especially in events like the vert pipes with skaters, bikers snowboarders, etc. They crash, go boom, and get back up and go again.
I agree on the CF Games following the X Games model/roadway.... at best it'll wind up on ESPN5 or some other ridiculous outcast 2nd rate tv program. On one hand, it'll make TV but it won't be taken as serious....now how its being programmed and portrayed right now. At least IMO.

Remember, main page is supposed to be something an Affiliate can send any client, new or old, to and tell them, "hey, this is what CF is all about". That video, labelled as 'heart' to anyone really involve din CF for what it is, a GPP program, would make 99% of new CF people shake their heads and probably make it their last trip to the webpage.

I do agree that most training injuries are not serious... but X games athletes, moto, skate, whatever are almost all wearing pads, equipment etc that should limit injuries, whereas for CF, the movement themselves, programmed by HQ are inherently responsbile for the injuries. HQ needs to figure out a better way to be smarter in their programming.

As Jamie said, there's a way to beat that crap out of someone, without injuring them. A few here or there is expected, but when a majority wind up bleeding or hurt...not cool or well thought out at all.

I'll say it again, I think CF is really getting up there in pushing athletes, but remember....the Games are the ELITE... the general CF community, that the mainpage programming is targeted to...shakes their head in disgust when things like that video are put up by HQ. I think CF is a great GPP program...but we all know of the athletes at the games, 99% are not following mainpage programming, because mainpage programming will not produce athletes that can compete at that level in the games.
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