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Old 07-12-2009, 07:19 PM   #11
Nicolas Kizzee
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Re: Games Scoring

Given the information from whoever MB is on the CF games comments section.. they had the idea of re-ranking the final 16 to each other. the list looked like this before starting Sundays events (i never checked for the accuracy of this information):

(number of points)

(30) Mikko Salo
(33) Tommy Hackenbruck
(35) Jason Khalipa
(35) Moe Kelsey
(38) Peter Egyed
(39) DJ Wickham
(39) Spencer Hendel
(40) Sveinbjorn Sveinbjornsson
(43) Blair Morrison
(43) Steve Willis
(44) James FitzGerald
(44) Jeff Leonard
(48) Patrick Burke
(47) Michael FitzGerald
(49) David Millar
(52) Jeremy Thiel


well after today's events.. had they chosen this scoring method which would have equalized the scoring of each WOD it would have resulted in this (FINAL):

(41) Jason Khalipa
(44) Mikko Salo
(58) DJ Wickham
(58) Tommy Hackenbruck
(59) Blair Morrison
(62) Moe Kelsey
(63) Steve Willis
(65) Patrick Burke
(69) Spencer Hendel
(71) Peter Egyed
(74) Michael FitzGerald
(77) David Millar

I am not a Khalipa fan as someone accused me of being on the comments section on the games site (I was rooting for Leonard and Speal.)... I am just a fan of fair scoring..
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Old 07-12-2009, 07:37 PM   #12
Cormac O'Connor
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Re: Games Scoring

That's a good idea, Nicolas...can't see anything wrong with it at first glance. Weren't people eliminated after WOD #2 as well though? or was it only at the end of Day 1? If they had to perform multiple re-ratings it might get a bit weird.

I should stress that any complaints I have about the scoring method should not be construed as a knock on the winners - who competed hard and fair within the rules that were set, and would doubtless have done just as well under any system we could devise.
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Old 07-12-2009, 07:42 PM   #13
Nicolas Kizzee
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Re: Games Scoring

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cormac O'Connor View Post
That's a good idea, Nicolas...can't see anything wrong with it at first glance. Weren't people eliminated after WOD #2 as well though? or was it only at the end of Day 1? If they had to perform multiple re-ratings it might get a bit weird.

I should stress that any complaints I have about the scoring method should not be construed as a knock on the winners - who competed hard and fair within the rules that were set, and would doubtless have done just as well under any system we could devise.
Yeah i agree.. I am not trying to bash the guys who won. They were all animals. Especially Salo seeing he is still on top with the re-ranking.

10 people were eliminated after WOD 2.. So the scoring per wod was off by #3... But with the re-ranking the final 16 it eliminates that factor.
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Old 07-12-2009, 07:49 PM   #14
Matthew Crabtree
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Re: Games Scoring

Gotta agree with the scoring from day 1 being adjusted based on the remaining 16 competitors for day 2. If you're going to eliminate people, it seems only logical to reflect it in the scoring. But someone mentioned not eliminating people at all, and I can see that too. At least then there would just be the controversy of scoring based on place or time, but that one will always be there. When you start changing the size of the pool of competitors, it really opens up the scoring to complaint.

That said. Amazing job, competitors. That is an unbelievable amount of work. I've got a long way to go.
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Old 07-12-2009, 08:05 PM   #15
Ryan McGrotty
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Re: Games Scoring

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dimitri Dziabenko View Post
My comments on the games

The Bad:

They underestimated the athletes on the deadlift - 16 guys tied for first place. Add 10 more barbells, and nobody would finish the sequence, thus separating the contestants. Giving the lower score is a bad idea, since it actually gives the workouts different weights, as the total points given out for the workouts are different, even on day 1. There were no ties on the run (I presume) and more points given out (ie. it was more punishing overall), but a lot of ties on the deadlift (overall less punishing to competitors scores). Alternatively, they could have made the jumps smaller (more fatigue), or the final weight higher.

Secondly, eliminating 80% of the crowd and carrying on with the scoring as if they were never there is bound to screw things up. If they can't handle that big of a competitor line up, then they shouldn't have sent out that many invitations. I just don't think it's fair to some of the competitors who came from far away to be eliminated a quarter of the way into the games because their weaknesses came up first. Since when is the order of workouts important? Let everybody compete until the end, and then decide the winner.

Thirdly, it has become clear that, from a technological perspective, the organizers need to tweak things for next year. This whole twittering of results is kind of a downer, since video is so much more inspiring. Reading "What an incredible finish..." on twitter is very anti-climatic. Streamed video please? And listening to Crossfit Radio to get results is so...early 20th century.

The Good:

Fantastic athletes. Truly amazing performances, and very inspiring pictures. There will be a lot of arguments as to what we can learn from their strengths/weaknesses/training.

The Workouts: Very good/broad selection of workouts. Their is really nothing that was left unexplored.

The Scoring: I think HQ took a stab at trying to weigh the workouts equally unlike in 2008. It failed, but it was a good try. Other than tweaks to the current system, I really don't think a major overhaul is necessary for next year.

Twitter: It's fast, but I don't think HQ was even the fastest to get the results out.

Cheers.
I completely agree. One thing I would add is gymnastic WODs on day 1. You can't expect a guy Speal's size to get out of day 1 if there are zero gymnastic (aka bodyweight) movements.

As far as technology/web updates, I think it would only take 4 guys and 2 laptops with a wifi connection. 1 guy in charge of live video of the event-- a tech savvy guy to operate the laptop with a good webcam to keep things running smoothly. Then 2 guys doing interviews with competitors, 1 to interview, 1 to operate camera. Then they take that higher quality video and upload it as downloadable content every hour. The last guy could be on his own and take high quality video of the competition and upload the raw video for those who couldn't watch it live. All this could be done with very little/zero cost, just the knowledge, borrowing someone's equipment (cheap pocket cams like the creative vado hd-$200- would be more than capable), and the willingness to put in the work.

Last edited by Ryan McGrotty : 07-12-2009 at 08:07 PM. Reason: x
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Old 07-12-2009, 08:09 PM   #16
Ed Haywood
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Re: Games Scoring

When analyzing the scoring system, it is important to separate the discussion from individual athletes and outcomes. That quickly spirals into subjective debates on who did what. The scoring system has to be neutral and blind. Like justice.

It also needs to be separated from programming issues. Programming is an art, and there will always be variations of opinion. Scoring is a science, and the mathematics should be rigorously analyzed to ensure they produce the intended effect.

The scoring system resulted in day 1 events being up to 4 times as important as day 2 events. Was this intentional? If so, it should have been stated before the games. It was not, so we can only assume this effect was an unintentional product of the decision to narrow the field to 16. Those who designed the scoring system simply did not sufficiently analyze the scoring system against the rest of the game format.

Obviously it is too late to change the results. And this in no way diminishes the accomplishments of those who won or anyone who competed. The rules were published, they were abided by, and the results are what they are.

But neither should errors be glossed over out of a misguided desire to honor the athletes or CFHQ. It is imperative to the future of our sport that we do a merciless post mortem of these events to learn from our mistakes. I hope that CFHQ views such commentary as helpful AAR points rather than sniping from the sidelines.

Eventually we're going to have to be done with the experimentation and settle on a single format for scoring. Notice all the big Olympic sports (gymnastics, weight lifting, wrestling) have uniform, standardized scoring and rules. It is essential to the growth of a sport. Crossfit is a young sport and I know we'll get there, not knocking CFHQ on that, but it's not too soon to start pushing that way.
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Old 07-12-2009, 08:14 PM   #17
Brett Dartt
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Re: Games Scoring

yup mikko salo is the winner!
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Old 07-12-2009, 08:17 PM   #18
Sean McCue
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Re: Games Scoring

Life is not fair. You can probably make a case that most scoring systems have some unfairness to them. NASCAR has changed their scoring system almost every year since they instituted the Chase for the Cup and the PGA has jiggered their scoring for the FedEx Cup and they both still have complaints. It is what it is and I think two very talented and extremely fit individuals won. Does that mean they would win every time? No way. Different events, different order of events, different ambient temperature things would be different.
It is all about the set standards. The individuals triumphed under the standards that were set for this Games. From the article,"Capacity, Standards, and Sport" by Tony Budding in the Journal
" The sport of fitness, and all sport for that matter, is an
arbitrary human creation for the sake of fun, glory, and
defeat. All sports require both rules, most of which
are black and white, and some form of arbitration to
determine adherence to those rules. For example, in
basketball, if you step a quarter-inch onto the three-
point line, your basket is worth two points. Keep back
that quarter-inch and itís worth three. That quarter-inch
could theoretically be the difference between winning
and losing a world championship. Is this because there
is some significant difference in achievement between
those two measurements? No. Itís an arbitrary decision
that the athletes agree upon for the sake of the sport.
You have to draw the line somewhere."
It's just a game. Everyone who competed earned their chance to compete. Nothing more, nothing less. There weren't any guarantees other than they would have a chance to be crowned Fittest Man/Woman. My hat is off to all who competed.
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Old 07-12-2009, 08:25 PM   #19
Joe Cavazos
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Re: Games Scoring

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan McGrotty View Post
I completely agree. One thing I would add is gymnastic WODs on day 1. You can't expect a guy Speal's size to get out of day 1 if there are zero gymnastic (aka bodyweight) movements.
There were two runs (bodyweight movements) on Day 1.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Haywood View Post
But neither should errors be glossed over out of a misguided desire to honor the athletes or CFHQ. It is imperative to the future of our sport that we do a merciless post mortem of these events to learn from our mistakes. I hope that CFHQ views such commentary as helpful AAR points rather than sniping from the sidelines.
Very thoughtful post. I completely agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean McCue View Post
Life is not fair. You can probably make a case that most scoring systems have some unfairness to them.
Very thought-terminating post. People who believe the scoring system should be above reproach should remember that it was thought and discussion regarding last year's scoring system that likely brought about the current one.
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Old 07-12-2009, 08:28 PM   #20
Wayne Larsen
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Re: Games Scoring

Nicholas,

I've been charting the results throughout, and made a few alternate charts of different scoring methods. My result based on reranking each of the top 16 looks the same as what you posted (except for Spencer Hendel, who was given a DNF for the chipper).

I've attached the graph of that method, or view it at http://www.quicksnapper.com/wvl/imag...aight-ranking/, You must indicate if your links are Work and Family Safe (WFS)and you can look at the rest that I've made here: http://www.quicksnapper.com/wvl/You must indicate if your links are Work and Family Safe (WFS)

I am in agreement that the official scoring biases the first days workouts too much. Unfortunately, the reranking putting Khalipa on top makes it seem like those supporting this idea just want the scoring changed so that their favourite wins. Reranked or not, it is still amazing how Khalipa came back from that first run.
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File Type: png 13098513154A5AA66548397_m.png (68.1 KB, 210 views)

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