CrossFit Discussion Board  

Go Back   CrossFit Discussion Board > CrossFit Forum > Fitness
CrossFit Home Forum Site Rules CrossFit FAQ Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Fitness Theory and Practice. CrossFit's rationale & foundations. Who is fit? What is fitness?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 01-03-2011, 02:06 PM   #1
Gabriel Ortiz
Member Gabriel Ortiz is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Chino Hills  CA
Posts: 118
CrossFit : Weight v. Time : Why?

To fellow CrossFitters,

I thank you,and appreciate your help in advance. I recently began introducing my club soccer team to CrossFit (13 - 14 year old boys). And,
at oe of the training sessions I was approached by a parnt who s basically a another CrossFit 'nay-sayer.'

He questioned our movements, etc. Which I could explain the functional movement, expressed as those movements capable of inducing power, logic.

However, he hit me with a relatively easy question, and I was unable to answer it: Why do you do, 'that' weight. Why not do less weight more times, or heavier weight less times,or heavier weight and just take longer? I didn't have a good answer.

So, to put it in practical terms: When we are doing Fran, for example, why is the RX weight 95 lbs? I mean, is there a benefit to doing heavier weight? Or, why do 21-15-9. Why not, 41-35-29? I think you see the point. (I wasn't Fran, we were doing, but I use that as an example because its simple).

Can anyone help?

Thank you in advance.

sinc, -g.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2011, 02:19 PM   #2
Thomas Green
Member Thomas Green is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: New York  NY
Posts: 1,156
Re: CrossFit : Weight v. Time : Why?

You have 13 year olds doing Fran with 95lbs??
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2011, 02:27 PM   #3
Greg Harrington
Member Greg Harrington is offline
 
Greg Harrington's Avatar
 
Profile:
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Seattle  WA
Posts: 85
Re: CrossFit : Weight v. Time : Why?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas Green View Post
You have 13 year olds doing Fran with 95lbs??
Nice welcoming reply. He clearly says its an example.

"(I(t) wasn't Fran, we were doing, but I use that as an example because its simple)."
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2011, 02:28 PM   #4
Brian Bedell
Member Brian Bedell is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Lantana  FL
Posts: 2,870
Re: CrossFit : Weight v. Time : Why?

Are you CF certified?

You really should know this kinda stuff if you are training others, esp., kids.

The rx'd weight is just a suggestion, as we all know the workouts are scaled to your abilities. There is no magic into why 21-15-9 is used a lot, there are threads on this (search). I think the answer to most of your question is that CF measures fitness over broad time and modal domains. The Fran example with 21-15-9 is meant to "test" or train for a particular time and domain in the three energy pathways. There are longer wods to train the aerobic pathway, and shorter (3-3-3-3-3 BS for example) to train shorter. Fran is just one wod, its not CF in totality. If it was 41-35-29 it would obviously take much longer, and that is not what we are training with Fran.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2011, 02:34 PM   #5
Diego Sommariva
Member Diego Sommariva is offline
 
Diego Sommariva's Avatar
 
Profile:
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Estepona  Spain
Posts: 290
Re: CrossFit : Weight v. Time : Why?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabriel Ortiz View Post
To fellow CrossFitters,

I thank you,and appreciate your help in advance. I recently began introducing my club soccer team to CrossFit (13 - 14 year old boys). And,
at oe of the training sessions I was approached by a parnt who s basically a another CrossFit 'nay-sayer.'

He questioned our movements, etc. Which I could explain the functional movement, expressed as those movements capable of inducing power, logic.

However, he hit me with a relatively easy question, and I was unable to answer it: Why do you do, 'that' weight. Why not do less weight more times, or heavier weight less times,or heavier weight and just take longer? I didn't have a good answer.

So, to put it in practical terms: When we are doing Fran, for example, why is the RX weight 95 lbs? I mean, is there a benefit to doing heavier weight? Or, why do 21-15-9. Why not, 41-35-29? I think you see the point. (I wasn't Fran, we were doing, but I use that as an example because its simple).

Can anyone help?

Thank you in advance.

sinc, -g.
Why is the 100m sprint 100m? Why not 124m?

I could go on with this forever.

Weights are what they are and period. It's all SCALABLE. And you can use any % of your 1RM you like, for gains in Strength, Strength-speed, speed-strength (:P), resistance, etc.

If you have a program which from the onset is all "do 15-21 or 45 reps with 50% of your 1RM depending on your goals" then it would be a bit, no, A LOT confusing, no?

Reps, weight and time are meant to work your body through as many different loads and exercise times (what usually gets called Broad Time and Modal Domains) so your body knows what it's like to work in any and all of these and adapts. You would do very poorly at something you have not trained before, or that's the theory.

Tell your Naysaying parent that if his son doesn't get stronger and faster and increases his cardiovascular endurance plus his stamina and agility and coordination he can take him elsewhere. Now, be sure to log this boy's progress, because all naysayers will go through hell just to prove something wrong, even if they have to cheat and falsify things themselves.

As a side note, someone I'm training is using CF to train a kiddies soccer team he has, and the advancements have been incredible: Faster, more agile, better cardiovascular capacity, etc. He doesn't have them weight training, just doing squats, other body movements, sprints instead of LSD, etc.

It works.


Diego
__________________
-----------------------------
CrossFit, so out of this world Luke Skywalker did it on Dagobah with coach Yoda
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2011, 02:38 PM   #6
Thomas Green
Member Thomas Green is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: New York  NY
Posts: 1,156
Re: CrossFit : Weight v. Time : Why?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Harrington View Post
Nice welcoming reply. He clearly says its an example.

"(I(t) wasn't Fran, we were doing, but I use that as an example because its simple)."
Didn't see that part
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2011, 03:13 PM   #7
S.S.
Departed S.S. is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Aug 2007
 
Posts: 3,800
Re: CrossFit : Weight v. Time : Why?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabriel Ortiz View Post
To fellow CrossFitters,

I thank you,and appreciate your help in advance. I recently began introducing my club soccer team to CrossFit (13 - 14 year old boys). And,
at oe of the training sessions I was approached by a parnt who s basically a another CrossFit 'nay-sayer.'

He questioned our movements, etc. Which I could explain the functional movement, expressed as those movements capable of inducing power, logic.

However, he hit me with a relatively easy question, and I was unable to answer it: Why do you do, 'that' weight. Why not do less weight more times, or heavier weight less times,or heavier weight and just take longer? I didn't have a good answer.

So, to put it in practical terms: When we are doing Fran, for example, why is the RX weight 95 lbs? I mean, is there a benefit to doing heavier weight? Or, why do 21-15-9. Why not, 41-35-29? I think you see the point. (I wasn't Fran, we were doing, but I use that as an example because its simple).

Can anyone help?

Thank you in advance.

sinc, -g.

The weights and reps are completely arbitrary.

More weight means more strength. More reps means more local muscular endurance. Whenever you apply force for more than a few seconds, you gradually leave the realm of strength and approach muscular endurance. There isn't a "wall" where strength stops and endurance starts, but most people would agree that beyond 10 reps is more in the realm of muscular endurance.

Last edited by S.S.; 01-03-2011 at 03:15 PM..
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2011, 03:16 PM   #8
Gabriel Ortiz
Member Gabriel Ortiz is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Chino Hills  CA
Posts: 118
Re: CrossFit : Weight v. Time : Why?

Gents,

Wow, thank you very much for your help an to be sure:

1. I am not a certified CF trainer. I take my boys to a CrossFit gym, CF chino hills, where there are certified trainers. I have been garage crossfitting for years and the boys have all asked me how to get n better game shape. I have been the goalie coach for a while, and I've made the goalie do CF'ish work outs (as much as possible on a soccr field, which is to say mainly body weight exercises). I purchased a 10 lb kettlebell for him, so we have been able to do some KB work, I made a box, so plyometric work, and we use local soccer goals for pull ups (generally jumping).

2. Also, I went to the website, to view the actual work out (again Fran was just an example because I thought it would be easier). The WOD on that day was Randy, and they did 30 lbs. ( they are all very cardio-fit, they run under a 5:30 mile)

3. Brian, my friend, I appreciate your response and I understand everything you are saying, though I think you've missed the point. I understand every WOD is scalable--undoubtedly, we do that everyday. And, I understand Fran is not CrossFit in totality--again, that was merely on example. The underlying queston, really, is why tht prescribed weight? Is that weight which others have felt challenging and therefore dubbed the RX? Has that weight been tested to cause the highest cardio surge? Has it been shown as the effective weight for muscular growth? I'm just trying to understand so I can rightly explain this to others, including the parents of athletes who are primarily driven by only cardio workouts. So, I am no speaking to merely this one WOD, but to the WOD's in general.

4. Diego, thank you very much my friend I also appreciate your response. And, I 9000% it will significantly benefit my boys--and, the majority of them love it--even though its a hard sell to soccer players (they see weights and think they will bulk up and unable to run). And, your logic makes sense. Perhaps I am trying to be to scientiic. I merely, wanted to have a logical and scientifcally explained answer as to why we do what we do. And, I didnt know if there was some magic behind the Rx'd weights, etc? Basically, what I told the gent is if we lifted any heavier we would go to slow,thus defeating the metcon effect (which was just a stab in the dark).

Thank you very much, to everyone, for your help.

sinc, -g.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2011, 03:33 PM   #9
Katherine Derbyshire
Member Katherine Derbyshire is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Seattle  WA
Posts: 7,596
Re: CrossFit : Weight v. Time : Why?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabriel Ortiz View Post
3. Brian, my friend, I appreciate your response and I understand everything you are saying, though I think you've missed the point. I understand every WOD is scalable--undoubtedly, we do that everyday. And, I understand Fran is not CrossFit in totality--again, that was merely on example. The underlying queston, really, is why tht prescribed weight? Is that weight which others have felt challenging and therefore dubbed the RX? Has that weight been tested to cause the highest cardio surge? Has it been shown as the effective weight for muscular growth? I'm just trying to understand so I can rightly explain this to others, including the parents of athletes who are primarily driven by only cardio workouts. So, I am no speaking to merely this one WOD, but to the WOD's in general.
95# is a convenient weight because it's what you get with 2 25# bumpers on a 45# bar. I would say that's probably the biggest reason why the RXed weight is 95#, rather than 90# or 100#.

Why 95# instead of 65# or 135#? That's the weight that allows "typical" athletes to complete the workout as a high intensity sprint, rather than a slow grinding slog. Why 21-15-9? Because apparently that gives each round the same perceived difficulty: 15 reps when you're tired is as difficult as 21 when you're fresh.

And, because CF workouts are varied, remember that the details of a particular workout don't actually matter all that much. If you program a workout that takes longer than expected, you can just fix it the next time.

Katherine
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2011, 03:51 PM   #10
Gabriel Ortiz
Member Gabriel Ortiz is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Chino Hills  CA
Posts: 118
Re: CrossFit : Weight v. Time : Why?

Shane and Katherine,

Thank you so much for your replies. They made perfect sense.

I am very grateful for the insight.

sinc, -g.
  Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Fran - Time vs Weight Corey Barker Fitness 15 05-23-2008 06:29 PM
Time vs. RX'd Weight Siddharth Sawkar Starting 14 12-20-2007 08:57 AM
Weight vs Time Dylan Tate Starting 5 06-21-2007 09:19 AM
Time or weight? Joshua M. Ossen Starting 2 04-13-2006 03:55 AM
Time or weight SHANE WERNER Workout of the Day 3 07-04-2003 12:58 PM


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:39 PM.


CrossFit is a registered trademark of CrossFit Inc.