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Old 08-12-2006, 07:58 AM   #1
Ragnar Speicher
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hello folks!

the following interview with dr. wong was posted somewhere on de vany's website. i hope that this has not been discussed before (couldnt find anything about dr. wong though). some of the things that dr. wong comes up with seem to be quite a bit controversial and i thought here are some people who will have much more intelligent thoughts on this than i do.

here are some quotes:

Also, it is an unsustainable myth that hard training increases testosterone levels. In every credible study done on training and its effects on blood whether in college athletes, Olympians, or troops in training or in battle, the stress and physical fatigue of exercise, skill performance and physical activity decreases testosterone and increases estrogen.

What exercises should trainees avoid?

DW: Here's the short list off the top of my head:

Wide grip pull downs or any pulldown with a pronated (palms away from you) grip. These movements are not only bio mechanically inefficient they murder the rotator cuff killing mostly the supraspinatus and terres muscles. Most folks quit the iron game when their shoulders get trashed out somewhere after 35. On the improper biomechanics: The lats have 160 degrees of range of motion when worked in the sagittal (front to back plane), to do that your palms need to be facing you to properly position your elbows. Turn your palms away from you and all of a sudden you are working on the transverse plane where the lats have only 60 to 80 degrees of ROM. Not only that but with out the bicep in the action your weak little elbow flexors will give out before the lats are saturated with exercise so the loss is doubled. The old wives tale of the lats having to work harder to make up for the biceps not being in the work would be true if the lats were connected to the elbow but they are not, they attach at the shoulder so that often told exercise pointer is absolute biomechanical hogwash!

Next bad exercise: straight-legged deadlifts. These shear the ligaments at the sacro iliac joints and provide a crushing shearing action on the L4/5 and L5 / S1 discs.

Finally, the full range of motion bench presses is bad news

MM: A lot of readers will not be happy to see the beloved bench press on this list.

DW: No doubt. Regardless, the bench press is the single greatest destroyer of the rotator cuff in lifting. I can walk up to nearly any bench press lover and strum the long head of the bicipital tendon beneath the anterior deltoid and bring tears to their eyes. Pavel and the Russians are right, the floor bench press or 1/2 ROM bench press guards against this insult while making folks just as strong as the full ROM benches. No one over 35 should do full ROM bench presses!




the full interview can be accessed here: http://www.mikemahler.com/wong2.html
any ideas?


best,
ragnar

(Message edited by Ragnar Speicher on August 12, 2006)
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Old 08-12-2006, 08:01 AM   #2
Paul Symes
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I think this is the same guy who says too much protein causes kidney damage
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Old 08-12-2006, 08:02 AM   #3
Ragnar Speicher
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(Message edited by Ragnar Speicher on August 12, 2006)
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Old 08-12-2006, 08:48 AM   #4
Larry Lindenman
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He's Wong! (sorry). Who cares...scientists said squats were bad and 30 years later that myth keeps popping up. I do think the bench press is overated, hugely. I always take what scientists say with a hugh grain of salt.
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Old 08-12-2006, 11:25 AM   #5
Tim Triche, Jr.
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My personal experience agrees strongly with his movement (dis)recommendations. Unless your biomechanics are perfect, the barbell bench press is a disaster and many if not most competitive bench press specialists end up with shoulder problems. The reverse hyper seems to be a vastly better substitute for straight legged deadlifts, and free range of motion during pullups will spare your elbows.

I can't believe the exercises he proscribes are controversial -- if you've been lifting for any length of time, what Dr. Wong says regarding these lifts (fixed-grip pronated pullups, stiff-legged deadlift, and bench press) strikes me as simple common sense. Do them a lot and you will damage your body. It's that simple. Monkeys did not evolve to press a steel bar off their chest.

The pronated fixed-grip pullup shows about a 70% correlation with medial epicondylitis in climbers. That's not theory; that's patients whose elbows are so up that they're seeing a doctor. Anyone who still claims that fixed-grip pulls are a good long-term idea is in denial.

I'd like to see a time-course of testosterone, growth hormone, and inflammation in athletes performing heavy resistance training before I'll believe his position on neuroendocrine response. Nearly every 'credible' study seemingly supported the theory that lactic acid was bad for working muscles for decades. Show me a time course and correlation against the increasing strength of (say) drug-tested Oly lifters and then let's chat.
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Old 08-12-2006, 11:31 AM   #6
Tim Triche, Jr.
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Follow-up: I read the entire interview and his position on testosterone levels appears to relate to athletes giving themselves insufficient time to recover. Hence the adage, "there's no such thing as overtraining, there's just undersleeping and undereating".

He's also pushing a bunch of books and supplements (right in the interview!) and providing no links to references (even Pavel provides citations so the reader can verify or critique the information and conclusions); I would say "watch out!" and take Dr. Wong's non-specific advice with a metric tonne of salt. However, his specific clinical correlations and pointed critique of destructive (unnatural) movements can be tested by the reader, and in my experience, they are borne out as true.

Summary: some unverifiable puffery, mixed in with some quite verifiable and pointed statements. I would suggest that a reader see if their own experience bears out the latter, and discard the former (due to the profit motive).
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Old 08-12-2006, 11:42 AM   #7
Ragnar Speicher
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hey larry,

yeah, scientist and salt go very well with each other, indeed. at the end of the day their brains are human and human brains make mistakes.

so youre saying what wong tells us about the biomechanics is a big piece of poop?
is there a good alternative source i could read up on this specific topic?

sorry if all of this sounds all too obvious to you. im only a cf noob with some natural curiousity.





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Old 08-12-2006, 12:26 PM   #8
Ragnar Speicher
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tim, you wrote:
"The pronated fixed-grip pullup shows about a 70% correlation with medial epicondylitis in climbers. That's not theory; that's patients whose elbows are so •••••• up that they're seeing a doctor. Anyone who still claims that fixed-grip pulls are a good long-term idea is in denial."

what are your suggestions? dismiss pullups alltogether? do them in moderation? change/alternate grip?

as we do a lot of pullups in cf this is certainly something that i wanna do right.

i did karate training and competitions for many years and ended up with a slipped disc underneath my black belt. although cf certainly is much more balanced and varied than only training karate i want to make sure that i keep my bones together as long as possible... at least until stem cells research has advanced a little more ;)
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Old 08-12-2006, 01:02 PM   #9
Larry Lindenman
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Ragner, I say this with a little perspective. BS in Exercise Physiology (1984). MS 1987, was a lab assistant in an exercise phys lab to pay for school. In the 80s exercise scientists took the position steroids did not improve performance or hypertrophy...trainers knew they were wrong. I don't really keep up with the journals, just filter personal experience and knowledge learned from other teachers.
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Old 08-12-2006, 02:43 PM   #10
Lincoln Brigham
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When pressed to provide an example of protein consumption being linked to kidney failure, he says, "Of the 30+ kids who die playing football each year between jr. high and college most of those deaths happen during August two a day practices and are due to kidney failure and not to heat stroke or heart attacks."

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot? That's his example?
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