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Old 05-02-2011, 03:19 PM   #121
Matt Haxmeier
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Re: Overall thoughts on Open wods?

Dave Lipson is currently standing at 41st overall.

DAVE LIPSON 41 (861 pts)
355 (352) 201 (480) 77 (72) 94 (139) 98 (375) 36 (141)

http://games.crossfit.com/athletes/dave-lipson (WFS)

We all know how brutally strong he is so it's pretty impressive how well he's doing in an open with no real strength event.

With a 1RM-like event, replacing one of the fairly similar events they chose, he could be ranked as high as 14th. (Assuming wod 1,2, or 5 was replaced which were all similar wods from my perspective and his scoring shows that as well)

In a world where everyone is a metcon monster it becomes the specialties that are the real differentiator....which is exactly why they should included in testing.

Last edited by Matt Haxmeier : 05-02-2011 at 03:27 PM.
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Old 05-05-2011, 12:09 AM   #122
Jonathan Young
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Re: Overall thoughts on Open wods?

Hi everybody,

I'm the author of the crossfit analysis blog that's been running some articles in the past few weeks. I have recently been reading some of the posts on the forum and it's definitely been fun to read other people's opinions on the Open.

I recently posted some material that might interest folks, especially with regards to the design of the open, and I would love to hear your thoughts.

http://xfit2011.blogspot.com/2011/05...open-fair.html

One claim I can comment on, especially with regards to this thread, is the idea that the WODs were all relatively the same. I think if you look at the breakdowns in performance across similar weights and heights, it's clear that this is almost categorically false. Many workouts featured peak height/weight performances that were all over the map.

Hopefully y'all find it fun to read. I'll probably continue to post some of my analysis for the next few weeks.
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Old 05-05-2011, 12:42 PM   #123
Matt Haxmeier
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Re: Overall thoughts on Open wods?

Thanks. I was following it and it has some great stuff.

Regarding your major points/questions:

#1.) What you see in 11.3 vs 11.6 is the difference the chest to bar pullups makes. By having only clean and jerk you are inherently biasing the shorter & heavier individual who can both have more muscle mass on their frame AND not have to move the weight as far.

Once you switch that to include chest to bar pullups you are then causing that heavy person to lift their own bodyweight. Which then starts to favor the lighter individuals. 100lbs Thrusters aren't heavy enough to slow them down for the advantage they get from being able to do the pullups so much faster/more efficiently/less energy expended, etc.

(my 160lbs workout buddy scored better than I on 11.6 even though he had to break the thrusters and I didn't. I'm at 205lbs so my thrusters were stronger but then he easily made up time on chest to bar pullups)

#2.) Not sure I get the BMI lines yet. But it looks like the average open competitor has a BMI putting them into the Overweight category. Fatties. j/k

#3.) wallballs definitely favor the tall and since they are so numerous it helped bias the whole workout. I did not see that coming really. But looking back it would be a completely different workout if it was AMRAP 10 PC, 10 TTB, 10 WB. or 15 PC, 10 TTB, 5 WB

#4.) Yes, because double unders are a trick and can negatively impact all bodytypes. So fairest is a relative term. :stir:

#6.) 11.2, 11.4, and 11.6 all look alike don't they? All seem to favor short, light builds. 11.1 probably would too if it weren't for it being so heavily trick based.

One could make the assertion that it shows that the wods selected are quite different based on the slight variations in these graphs. But what would a true 1RM event have looked like. What would a true speed event look like? What would a 5k row looked like?

I'm just playing devil's advocate to a certain degree. I know that a wod like 11.6 is a totally different beast when it's 100lbs Thrusters & CTB Pullups than when it's 135lbs Thrusters and Regular pullups. It is intrinsically favoring a specific bodytype whether everyone likes to recognize that or not. And the more frequently wods are comprised of the same weights, by the same people, with the same exercises, and weighted the same then you can be pretty sure the same type (size/structure) of athlete will win. In HQ's mind 1 thruster=1 pullup no matter the weights of the people involved.

And in general I wanted to see a wod where even the elite's were standing around a little staring at the bar. I'm don't think I saw that. Maybe regionals. Not everything should be all-go.

Last edited by Matt Haxmeier : 05-05-2011 at 01:01 PM.
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Old 05-05-2011, 01:36 PM   #124
Geoff Archibald
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Re: Overall thoughts on Open wods?

I would like to see a plot of the number of athletes at each height and weight. It would tell a little more about the statistics in the fringes. The standard deviation of the mean for each exercise might be an even better indicator.
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Old 05-05-2011, 05:27 PM   #125
Steve Loeding
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Re: Overall thoughts on Open wods?

That is a GREAT blog - can't wait to read more of your analysis. Thanks for the updates and the work you put into it.
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Old 05-06-2011, 12:26 AM   #126
Jonathan Young
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Re: Overall thoughts on Open wods?

I try to let others discuss different data interpretations, but I'll try to quickily respond. Matt, I think you raise several points that others who come to come to the blog might want to see. Next time would you mind hitting the blog with the comments as well? Thanks in advance.

1) Totally understand, but to completely flip central tendencies? I guess I learned how hard c-to-bars are for thicker folks.

2) Careful, the plots say nothing about the average open BMI, just the average performance given your height and weight. If you meant to say that peak performance is in the 'overweight' category, you are correct.

3) Right.

4) Mmm, I'm not sure I agree with the term 'trick'. I'm not a part of any xfit gym, but straight from the crossfit definition of fitness is number 8: coordination. Couldn't double unders be considered a primary test of this?

6) I think I might have oversimplfied. Take a look at the heat maps for 11.2 and 11.4. While the central tendency is 'similar' the weight bias is not as extreme in 11.4, and the performance fall off is different (check where the blue areas are in each workout). In the strictest sense, I guarantee a statistical test would find these workouts to be not equivalent. I can see what your point though.





Regarding the standard deviation plots - I've look at some of them and unfortunately, they're kind of bland. Was there a particular question you had in mind? Or were you just interested is seeing the variation?
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Old 05-06-2011, 12:34 PM   #127
Geoff Archibald
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Re: Overall thoughts on Open wods?

I mostly wanted to see the distribution of the sizes of people who entered the open. At 5'8" 160# I'm definitely at the small end of the spectrum from the looks of things.

The standard deviation plot would be a measure of the strength of the conclusions that can be drawn from the plots of the average scores. It might not be very interesting. Did you do standard deviation or standard deviation of the mean? They would give different information.
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Old 05-09-2011, 01:02 PM   #128
Matt Haxmeier
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Re: Overall thoughts on Open wods?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan Young View Post
I try to let others discuss different data interpretations, but I'll try to quickily respond. Matt, I think you raise several points that others who come to come to the blog might want to see. Next time would you mind hitting the blog with the comments as well? Thanks in advance.

1) Totally understand, but to completely flip central tendencies? I guess I learned how hard c-to-bars are for thicker folks.

Yes, Actually. Check out my post in this old thread regarding performance on Fran by weight vs performance on Grace by weight. http://board.crossfit.com/showthread...ght=whiteboard (WFS) This is exaserbated by the fact that the pullups were chest to bar instead of just normal chins.

2) Careful, the plots say nothing about the average open BMI, just the average performance given your height and weight. If you meant to say that peak performance is in the 'overweight' category, you are correct.

OK, yep, I knew I didn't understand the lines. Any idea what the average BMI for an elite was?

3) Right.



4) Mmm, I'm not sure I agree with the term 'trick'. I'm not a part of any xfit gym, but straight from the crossfit definition of fitness is number 8: coordination. Couldn't double unders be considered a primary test of this?

Coordination that you have to keep practicing and practicing until you get it. Like juggling bowling balls, or playing guitar hero on expert, or riding a unicycle, or yo-yo tricks. But that discussion probably already played itself out threads long ago like this one: http://board.crossfit.com/showthread...=double+unders (WFS)

6) I think I might have oversimplfied. Take a look at the heat maps for 11.2 and 11.4. While the central tendency is 'similar' the weight bias is not as extreme in 11.4, and the performance fall off is different (check where the blue areas are in each workout). In the strictest sense, I guarantee a statistical test would find these workouts to be not equivalent. I can see what your point though.

They were only slightly different from each other but probably would have been wildly different from the graph of a 1RM or a 100m Sprint or a javelin throw for accuracy/distance. If I'm desiging a test for fittest person I don't make them do a 1RM, 3RM, and 5RM and call it a day and I don't just make them do stuff they are good at. I make them do stuff they suck at so that I can see who sucks the least.

If I have two guys and all I know about them is (obviously simplifying):
1.) deadlifts 1000lbs and runs a 6:00 mile.
2.) deadlifts 500lbs and runs a 5:30 mile.

I believe these events would choose #2, while I'm more inclined to think #1 is more "fit". But, of course, that's all up to debate.

Last edited by Matt Haxmeier : 05-09-2011 at 01:30 PM.
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Old 05-15-2011, 03:12 PM   #129
Pär Larsson
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Re: Overall thoughts on Open wods?

I dearly missed any running whatsoever, but I can totally understand the greater imperative of making video tape possible. Which makes me hope beyond hope that the Regionals or Finals will feature a 5k or 10k to punish those who think anything beyond a 400m run is a long run.

I'd love to see an easy first WOD again followed by a ball-buster heavy weight thing. This got people excited and into it, followed by a wake-up call that had a lot of people all over the world all of a sudden getting 1RM PRs. Which is a good thing, imo. People need that incentive, that push.

I really have no complaints, except maybe add a modified CFT, that wouldn't hurt - and the express notification that "Hey, there'll be a big run/endurance event at Regionals" to take the gymnastics/heavy oly lift people down a notch since they can be forgiven for assuming that they're awesome at CF just because the Open format favoured them.
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Old 05-18-2011, 12:06 PM   #130
Matt Haxmeier
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Re: Overall thoughts on Open wods?

This weeks update on the open starts to delve into a little bit of the statistics they've been gathering. Should be interesting.

http://games.crossfit.com/features/videos/update-week-8 (WFS)
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