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Old 02-24-2012, 12:23 AM   #21
Rob Samuels
 
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Re: Charles Poliquin likes CrossFit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Russell Greene View Post
Dave is CrossFit's Director of Training. Doesn't that qualify him to explain CrossFit programming?

Well not really, but I will humor you. Have him explain it. I look forward to the response.

You message board guys talk a lot. I get that.

Well, it is a message board after all

I love to argue, too.

Not looking to argue, would just like a real answer.

Something that we need to remember, though, is that fitness isn't expressed by words, it's expressed by work. Superior methods for developing fitness aren't established through words, they're expressed through consistently superior levels of work capacity across broad time and modal domains.

I struggled with this. I think you meant well but perhaps re-thinking this is in order? Yes we all know you need to exercise to see benefit from it. but words are quite necessary. In the certs and at the gym words are necessary to insure the target audience understands what they are being asked to do, how to do it and what they should expect from doing it.

You want CrossFit to teach you how to program. Have you attended a Level 1 seminar?

I don't want CrossFit to teach me how to program, I want Crossfit to explain how they program. Why? Because yes I have been to a level 1 cert, and what I was taught, is not reflected on the main site. If your rebuttle is that I'm incorrect, then perhaps I need some remedial training. Why? Because as a level 1 trainer, training people, I am a reflection of CrossFit, I am CrossFit's product. You do want me to be the best I can be for CrossFit yes?

A Coach's Prep Course? Or even delved deeply into the Journal? It's not all one page articles.

No I have never been to a coaches prep course. However as a level 1 and also as someone who studies, reads, discusses fitness I at this point believe the programming is flawed ,so why would I seek to further my education in a flawed program? That is not to say I have given up on it but I have questions, as do many others, that are never addressed appropriately. Hence the reason I'm asking for clarification on programming.

As for ongoing training, have you noticed how many specialty seminars there are?

This is straight off the main page:
Endurance
Football
Goal Setting
Gymnastics
Kettlebells
Mobility
Oly Lifting
Powerlifting
Rowing
Striking
Strongman

That looks like a substantial amount of ongoing training to me.

As you pointed out, the above is specialty training. Ongoing training is designed to reinforce and update skills and knowledge you have already acquired. For example in law enforcement, you are taught basic firearms. Ongoing training would be to go to the range and practice what you have been taught. Becoming a sniper would be specialty training.
I understand this is an online arena and sometimes a tone can be taken when none is intended so I want to assure you I am not being argumentative in the least. I simply feel that CrossFit has holes and unless they are addressed the same arguments will continue to occur.

Not addressing the questions properly or refusing to address them altogether weakens the position in the long run. Its nice CrossFit has been able to cash in on what it has developed thus far but I would think it would want to strengthen its position by addressing the concerns which may require an "oops we were wrong on that" at times.

There seems to be this just ignore it and it will go away philosophy on many things and I dont know why. CrossFit has done a good thing and as a result many people have become more than they ever though possible so rather than "sticking to your guns" on things we all know are wrong just fix it and drive on. The program only becomes stronger that way.

Edit: Thank you for taking part in the discussion Russell. Participation by CrossFit Staff has been severely lacking and much needed in the forum it runs. There are knowledgeable people who participate here but this is after all CrossFit, it's nice to get input from the source. It's needed in far greater frequency and I think nothing but positive things can come from a business that actively participates in it's forum.

Last edited by Rob Samuels : 02-24-2012 at 12:35 AM.
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Old 02-24-2012, 12:27 AM   #22
Russell Greene
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Re: Charles Poliquin likes CrossFit

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Originally Posted by Pearse Shields View Post
You still avoided the question with regards to main site programming. As for Dave Castro holding the qualifications for his position because he holds his position, that's merely circular reasoning. How many top-tier athletes at the games follow CF.com programming? Surely that's the biggest test of CF's programming's legitimacy?
I did not avoid the question. Main site programming is not random.

I was not discussing Dave's qualifications to be Director of Training, but his qualifications to discuss CrossFit programming.

CrossFit is not just main site programming. CrossFit affiliates all over the world program their own workouts following CrossFit principles, and that's CrossFit as well.

Have you seen the video of Graham Holmberg and Rich Froning's training for the 2012 Games? It's a good indication of how the fittest in the world train. Varied, not random.
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Old 02-24-2012, 03:18 AM   #23
Anders Alkaersig
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Re: Charles Poliquin likes CrossFit

Thanks for your participation in this discussion, Russel. This is a good discussion.

My perspective:
It is important to make a distinction between the training methods (quantity and quality) of people like Graham Holmberg and Rich Froning and people like me.

Holmberg and Froning are training to compete and they are aspirering to become professional athletes.
I train to be fit. I don't want to spend more than 75min in the gym a day. For that purpose, .com (and many other sources of crossfit programming) is excelent.

So, just because games-athletes does not use .com programming exclusively, it does not mean that it is not valid.

(i'm not a native english-speaker, sorry in advance for typos and poor formulations.)
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Old 02-24-2012, 03:39 AM   #24
Rob Samuels
 
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Re: Charles Poliquin likes CrossFit

I agree in that a program does not need to be designed fora games athlete to be "Legitimate" but, it still needs to follow some basically understood physiological parameters.
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Old 02-24-2012, 06:09 AM   #25
Anders Alkaersig
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Re: Charles Poliquin likes CrossFit

agreed.
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Old 02-24-2012, 08:29 AM   #26
Russell Berger
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Re: Charles Poliquin likes CrossFit

I don't want to confuse everybody by adding another Russell to this discussion, but I saw this yesterday and couldn't help but jump in.

Russ wrote (in my opinion) a great rebuttal to Poliquin's article. He put down hundreds of words analyzing Poliquin's misunderstanding of CrossFit, and with the exception of one misconception about technique and intensity that Oli Kellett had, no one is actually addressing the post or the topic of this discussion board.

Instead, we have guys like Rob Samuels floundering around on the subject of programming. Is this a sign that Russ wrote a great comprehensive response? Or is this a sign that few people actually took the time to read it and went on mindlessly complaining about whatever they were getting on the message board to complain about anyway?

I’m sure Rob is ****ed at this point, and will probably complain that he is “not being argumentative” and in fact is just an honest and noble champion of the truth. The problem is that Rob doesn’t actually have an argument. Let me re-cap his points thus far:

On Dave Castro:

Quote:
What are his qualifications to even have a legitimate opinion on training?

Does he even have a degree or any formal education in anything? Who are the legitimate athletes he has trained? If he is to be considered an authority can you please qualify him as such?
Yeah, I get it, you like degrees and credentials. This isn’t an argument, it’s the genetic fallacy of logic in perfect form. “It can’t be accurate because it wasn’t said by a guy with letters behind his name” has nothing to do with the truth or falsehood of our claims about programming. Ignoring the effectiveness (or lack thereof) of CrossFit programming and instead trying to criticize the education of those who are filmed talking about it just shows how little you actually understand the programming to begin with. If you did, you would have a real argument.




Let’s try your next argument:

Quote:
People are on this site because its a great place for information sharing and gathering but I think you can easily see a trend as you go through the threads. People are steering clear of mainsite programming and directing others to do the same.

That tells me there is a problem which should be addressed. There are a lot of people who have paid a lot of money to CrossFit myself being one of them and a video that says "its not random" doesn't address the question.
Ok bud, let’s break this stellar argument down. Some “people” who troll the internet and frequent the CF message boards are “steering clear” of mainsite programming. This conclusively tells you, without a doubt that “there is a problem which should be addressed”.

You’re right, unless our programming makes everyone who sees it 100% happy, there are definite problems with it. If this is actually true, then every coach on earth has “problems which should be addressed”. Brilliant.

Again, I’m reading your comments and see absolutely nothing that establishes justification for your opinions. This is what I mean by floundering. You are wasting Greene’s time and everyone elses by filling this board with meaningless words.

Then agian, on the Poliquin article, you did say:

Quote:
Fair assessment. Thanks for posting.
so we know that you already approved of his article...which says more than enough about your empty arguments

You have called CrossFit a “Flawed program” multiple times, and never actually explained how it is flawed other than to say that some people somewhere don’t like it. So here it is Sam, one request- Please concisely state the relevant data you have used to draw conclusions about the effectiveness of CrossFit programming in achieving its stated goals and I will happily discuss these with you. If there are some “unanswered” questions that actually pertain to the same, I will be happy to do answer those as well.
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Old 02-24-2012, 08:34 AM   #27
Rob Samuels
 
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Re: Charles Poliquin likes CrossFit

hmmm 12 posts here. Obviously an authority.
I am looking for dialogue from CrossFit not some dude who went to the cert just like I did so he could start a home based business. Enjoy the thread though and feel free to jump in at my floundering to offer your steller input.

Last edited by Rob Samuels : 02-24-2012 at 08:38 AM.
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Old 02-24-2012, 09:56 AM   #28
Russell Greene
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Re: Charles Poliquin likes CrossFit

Rob, you realize that Berger is a Level 1 Seminar Flowmaster, CrossFit Games judge, and CrossFit Journal author, right?
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Old 02-24-2012, 10:35 AM   #29
Russell Berger
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Re: Charles Poliquin likes CrossFit

Rob, that's strike 2.

The farther you go down this road the less seriously anyone reading this is going to take you. You can either:

1) explain to us how you have reasoned that CrossFit programming is ineffective in achieving its stated goals, or...

2) provide us no arguments for that opinion and keep mindlessly talking about how everyone is too unqualified to talk to you.

The latter option will force me to assume you don't even know what your own arguments are. Don't embarrass yourself bud, take option 1 or stop whining.
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Old 02-24-2012, 11:07 AM   #30
Rob Samuels
 
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Re: Charles Poliquin likes CrossFit

No I don't know what a "flowmaster" is and I don't know who he is in general. However he came at me like a jack a$$ so I don't really care. He comes in here with his 12 posts like he knows something as opposed to folks who have been here for YEARS.

I have not brought up any new questions or topics the board is littered with the same questions and concerns. He acts as if what I said is somehow new to the board.

He says I'm wasting your time if thats true I apologize. Perhaps posting on a message board in general is a waste of time however its here and we are posting so if its a waste of time one could just not post and that solves that problem. I think a open discussion about such things is certainly not a waste of time. By his argument there is no need to discuss anything just do as your told because we say its right is the answer. I disagree.

He says questioning Castro's credentials is unimportant. Wow really? Again we come back to the just do it because we say it's so philosophy. So going by this manner of thinking, I myself am an expert so what I say is right, what now?

Many REAL experts in their field have criticized CrossFit yet Castro is the overriding authority?

He alludes to the fact that people who disagree with anything CrossFit, are simply trolls and don't know what they are talking about. Good argument buddy.

He asks that I justify my argument but the arguments have already been made. Should I post links to the plethora of articles and posts which point out the flaws or just regurgitate it as my own? I don't understand this part of his post.

The argument (one of them) is that CrossFit programming doesn't follow any accepted practices for physiological adaptation. The exercise selection, the volume, the frequency etc... is not conducive to athletic progression in an efficient manner. Can you get fitter by following it vs. sitting on your couch? Yes. Is it optimal? No.

More importantly the programming does not appear to follow the guidelines taught in the level 1.

You see what happens here? Anytime anyone questions anything CrossFit it turns into an argument where the person questioning spends his/her time defending the fact they dared question things in the first place. From there it degrades to, your a troll, your a hater and eventually.....pukies bucket.

The questions NEVER get addressed they are ALWAYS avoided by attacking the person questioning as opposed to just simply answering the damn question.

Why is it so difficult to simply say, "We do this because...."

So again just to be clear. can you explain the template which is used to select exercises, sets reps weights(Wod) and how CrossFit factors in recovery and progression within the framework of its programming.

Thank you.
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