CrossFit Discussion Board  

Go Back   CrossFit Discussion Board > CrossFit Forum > Fitness
CrossFit Home Forum Site Rules CrossFit FAQ Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Fitness Theory and Practice. CrossFit's rationale & foundations. Who is fit? What is fitness?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 08-09-2011, 11:29 AM   #21
Ryan Earle
Member Ryan Earle is offline
 
Ryan Earle's Avatar
 
Profile:
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Lynchburg  VA
Posts: 166
Re: Defranco on Crossfit for Athletes

Just to add fuel to the fun: Defranco's 21 ways to be built like a badass
(includes shirtless males)YOU MUST ANNOTATE ALL LINKS WHETHER WORK AND FAMILY SAFE.


Quote:
1. Squat Heavy

2. Jump Rope

3. Do Chin Ups

4. Bench Heavy

5. Run

6. Sprint

7. Jump

8. Do Push Ups

9. Drink Lots of Water

10. Perform Barbell or Dumbbell Complexes Once a Week

11. Eat Lean Protein with Each Meal

12. Deadlift

13. Get 8 Hours of Sleep Each Night

14. Eat Lots of Green Veggies

15. Perform High Intensity “Cardio”

16. Incorporate High & Low Reps Into Your Workouts

17. Allow Adequate Recovery Between Workouts

18. Don’t EVER Go on a Low Calorie Diet

19. Use the foam roller, tennis ball & lax ball to improve tissue quality and alleviate soreness

20. Dare to be Different!

(In other words; DON’T do what everyone else at your gym is doing. There’s a reason most people look like sh*t!)

21. Train Like an Athlete

22. Buy the “BUILT LIKE A BADASS” ebook and follow the program!
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2011, 11:42 AM   #22
Mark Boyle
Member Mark Boyle is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Toronto  ON Canada
Posts: 126
Re: Defranco on Crossfit for Athletes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mauricio Leal View Post
I don't mean to question your creds, but you seem to have a strong opinion of CrossFit as it relates to this subject, that is based on...what? Your reading about the idea of CrossFit? I would hope that you have at least done it in the past for some duration or have coached athletes using it before you comment on how it compares to other programs.
Question them all you want. I'm NOT qualified to be training people - or at least not qualified enough that I would feel comfortable charging money for it. However, that doesn't mean I can't point out what should be obvious: General work is not going to be as good as specific work when preparing for a specific task. It also doesn't mean I can't question others. It certainly doesn't mean my points are incorrect. They stand on their own merrit, and not on my history.

Quote:
Most everyone already agrees that being brutally strong in the major lifts confers great benefits on the field, and those movements already deviate from specificity.
In many cases it does, but not always. I highly doubt Cadel Evans cares about his benchpress strength. Adding 50 lbs to his bench won't make Peyton Manning a much better football player.

Quote:
From my limited observation, programming aside, it is rather astounding how many high level athletes suck technically at the movements themselves that are common to CF (but of course not limited to).My sense is that, regardless of programming, they would benefit from learning more efficient movement patterns that correct imbalances (hopefully some MWODing too) and, big question mark of course, transfer to better movement/more productive power output in their sport.
Why does this surprise you? Also, I would think the fact that an elite athlete can be very efficient at a movement pattern in their sport yet not efficient at a "CF" movement would indicate that there would be little correlation between the two.
Quote:
CF is just a great medium to address a lot of these inefficiencies because it is so multi-disciplinary and adaptive, but not the only one of course. I don't think anyone is advocating trading skill/drill time for CF workouts. Specific programming is always debatable. There are few just plain wrong answers, and there are too many variable to go back and cover all the What Ifs. I think the classic metcon and its resulting adaptations are still not fully understood, but that there are at least some serious psychological adaptions that happen from repeated bouts with intense and varied stimuli that cannot be overlooked.
Another question to be asked is: are those adaptions (both physical and psychological) good or bad or neutral? Does a baseball player really need to learn how to "gut it out"?
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2011, 11:51 AM   #23
adam adkins
Member adam adkins is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Lexington  KY
Posts: 761
Re: Defranco on Crossfit for Athletes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Boyle View Post
In addition to time, another aspect would be movement. For instance, consider a QB or baseball pitcher vs. a RB. Shoulder and elbow health is going to be critical for a QB/pitcher and should be one of the focuses in training (pre-hab, rehab etc.). A RB is far more concerned about the health of his legs.
Even the movement of skating is different from running and will lead to different training needs (different imbalances, different focus on certain muscle groups). Obviously this isn't as extreme an example, but it would lead to differences in training. There isn't going to be much stretch reflex in skating, so it may not be as important to train this as it would be for a sprinter (or conversly, somone like a basketball player may have to avoid this for a while after their season while for a hockey player they can immediately do some jumps to provide variety).

As most people do, you are grossly over valuing your job. The purpose of being in the gym for every athletes, regardless of sport, is to develop strength and power and the bottom line is that the methods to develop strength and power are pretty darn similar. i.e. there are only so many ways to skin a cat.

Sure, baseball players and QBs shouldn't go overhead. And don't forget swimmers, or volleyball or tennis either. And you better add pullups to that list to for shoulder health. But that's not sport specific, that's common sense.

And sure, dudes over 6'5 have trouble squatting but again, that isn't sport specific that physiology.

No doubt individual athletes have individual needs and no doubt certain types of athletes gravitate to certain sports. But if you are training the high school short stop substantially different than you are training the high school slot receiver you are doing both a disservice.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2011, 12:08 PM   #24
Andrew N. Casey
Banned Andrew N. Casey is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Abilene  KS
Posts: 2,590
Re: Defranco on Crossfit for Athletes

while i mostly agree with the point he was making, i think this discussion must be specific to be meaningful. define "athlete" and "sport". most that do crossfit would consider themselves athletes. also, it depends greatly on the sport. especially when it comes to high school athletes as many are still growing / developing, and many play many different sports. when you start combining numerous sports on a year round basis, many of which involve different time domains and skill sets, it becomes hard to have a specialized program. even in same sport athletes, many play multiple positions in football, baseball, etc. if you are talking about a person trying to improve at one position in one sport, then a more streamlined program will help. but at that point the person is not training to be an "athlete", they are training to be a 100meter sprinter, a running back, a third baseman, etc. i think it depends on what you define as "athletic", "sport", etc... but again, i agree with the point he was attempting to make.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2011, 01:28 PM   #25
Trey Williams
Member Trey Williams is offline
 
Trey Williams's Avatar
 
Profile:
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Chattanooga  TN
Posts: 91
Re: Defranco on Crossfit for Athletes

Quote:
Originally Posted by adam adkins View Post
As most people do, you are grossly over valuing your job. The purpose of being in the gym for every athletes, regardless of sport, is to develop strength and power and the bottom line is that the methods to develop strength and power are pretty darn similar. i.e. there are only so many ways to skin a cat.

Sure, baseball players and QBs shouldn't go overhead. And don't forget swimmers, or volleyball or tennis either. And you better add pullups to that list to for shoulder health. But that's not sport specific, that's common sense.

And sure, dudes over 6'5 have trouble squatting but again, that isn't sport specific that physiology.

No doubt individual athletes have individual needs and no doubt certain types of athletes gravitate to certain sports. But if you are training the high school short stop substantially different than you are training the high school slot receiver you are doing both a disservice.
Blanket statements are silly. I'm sure many successful baseball players and quarterbacks go overhead and do pull ups regularly. Just because you're tall doesn't mean it will necessarily be harder for you to squat, and even if it is harder it doesn't give you an excuse to omit it.

Different sports demand different kinds and levels of strength, speed and power. Many high school athletes stand to make a lot of money via scholarships and even professional careers. The real disservice is putting them at a disadvantage by training them all the same way.
__________________
M/20/6'3/200 Dead: 525 Squat: 385 Bench: 245 Power Clean: 265
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2011, 01:49 PM   #26
Mark Boyle
Member Mark Boyle is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Toronto  ON Canada
Posts: 126
Re: Defranco on Crossfit for Athletes

Quote:
Originally Posted by adam adkins View Post
As most people do, you are grossly over valuing your job. The purpose of being in the gym for every athletes, regardless of sport, is to develop strength and power and the bottom line is that the methods to develop strength and power are pretty darn similar. i.e. there are only so many ways to skin a cat.

Sure, baseball players and QBs shouldn't go overhead. And don't forget swimmers, or volleyball or tennis either. And you better add pullups to that list to for shoulder health. But that's not sport specific, that's common sense.

And sure, dudes over 6'5 have trouble squatting but again, that isn't sport specific that physiology.

No doubt individual athletes have individual needs and no doubt certain types of athletes gravitate to certain sports. But if you are training the high school short stop substantially different than you are training the high school slot receiver you are doing both a disservice.
Do you know the kind of forces that occur in a throwing motion? Do you know the best way to train a person in order to account for the stress caused by repeated throwing motions. Do you know what motions should be strengthened in order prevent injuries from occuring and/or to rehab a player once their season is done?

I think I'll just agree to disagree here. I believe you've drastically oversimplified things and forgotten a key aspect of physical conditioning: Injury Prevention.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2011, 01:49 PM   #27
Ryan Earle
Member Ryan Earle is offline
 
Ryan Earle's Avatar
 
Profile:
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Lynchburg  VA
Posts: 166
Re: Defranco on Crossfit for Athletes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trey Williams View Post
Blanket statements are silly. I'm sure many successful baseball players and quarterbacks go overhead and do pull ups regularly. Just because you're tall doesn't mean it will necessarily be harder for you to squat, and even if it is harder it doesn't give you an excuse to omit it.

Different sports demand different kinds and levels of strength, speed and power. Many high school athletes stand to make a lot of money via scholarships and even professional careers. The real disservice is putting them at a disadvantage by training them all the same way.
During Hard Knocks on HBO last year they showed Sanchez doing Chin Ups.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2011, 03:15 PM   #28
Alex Europa
Affiliate Alex Europa is offline
 
Alex Europa's Avatar
 
Profile:
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Waialua  HI
Posts: 1,016
Re: Defranco on Crossfit for Athletes

Mark,

So you don't believe that many of the world's most highly respected experts on periodization are correct when they say that there should be a period of time dedicated to GPP at the beginning of the season?

The GPP phase is the time when athletes are able to work on stuff that ISN'T directly related to their sport, but builds their OVERALL fitness. And yes, this is advice directed at elite-level coaches and athletes. The SPP work comes in either intermittently during the initial phase of training or stays out completely until the athlete rolls into "Phase 2" of their plan.

Yes, people are doing more and more conjugate style training, however something like football is a perfect opportunity, IMO, to really take advantage of that first phase of GPP work. A typical NFL season is, what, about 6 month long-including pre-season and the playoffs? That means that they can take 1 month completely off, then spend 2 months working on GPP (which, again, is something recommended by many, many experts in the field), and then spend the final 3 months before the season starts building up their SPP-to include a final "rounding into form" during the pre-season. Non-playoff teams have even more time and can stretch out each phase a little bit longer if desired. Is there any question that a strength-biased CrossFit program will improve nearly anyone's work capacity? Again, according to many many experts in the field, not EVERYTHING that an athlete does has to be directly related to their sport, many even argue that it's best if they spend a little bit of time doing stuff that isn't directly related to their sport. Since CrossFit is a very effective way to build up their GPP and develop portions of their fitness that don't get nearly as much attention during the rest of the year, why is it a bad choice? Unless of course, you don't agree with the experts, which lord knows I won't fault you for...I do the same thing all the time. Just realize that there is alot of literature out there from many many decades of actual in-the-trenches work around the globe backing up this position. That doesn't mean that it is right or best, only that it has been proven to work.

And while there is definitely alot of pre/rehab work being done year-round, the final phase of a periodized plan is recovery which typically lasts 2-4 weeks of doing nothing but active recovery work (light swimming, hiking, etc...). That is really when athletes spend the time sorting out their injuries from the previous year (and yes, I know that some will take longer to heal).

Lastly, you mentioned that you don't think that adding 50-lbs to Peyton Manning's bench would help him out. While you very well could be right, since he's Peyton friggin' Manning, but there is a reason that shortly after Tiger Wood's came onto the scene with a 300-lbs bench press that PGA pros quickly started adding strength work to their training. Within reason, being stronger generally makes people better athletes...but the "requirements" are going to be different for different positions/sports.

Oh, and regarding the discussion about training a short stop and slot receiver, I think that a coach would do well to train them the same way during the GPP portion of their training cycles, but beyond that, their SPP requirements would obviously deviate significantly.

- Alex
__________________
CrossFit Barbarian Fitness / Flickr
"Every man dies. Not every man truly lives."
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2011, 03:16 PM   #29
Katherine Derbyshire
Member Katherine Derbyshire is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Seattle  WA
Posts: 7,596
Re: Defranco on Crossfit for Athletes

I'm reminded of the incident a few years ago where the New York Yankees hired a new S&C coach with no baseball experience ... and spent the first half of the season struggling through all kinds of injuries.

It's a safe bet that his credentials looked great on paper, but clearly a bit more specialization was needed.

The more specialized your goals, the more specialized your training needs to be. It's not even clear that Crossfit is the best way to develop elite *Crossfitters*; the suggestion that a generalized program aimed at the general population is the best way to develop elite athletes in other sports is ludicrous.

Katherine
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2011, 06:14 PM   #30
Eric A. Brown
Member Eric A. Brown is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: New York  NY
Posts: 226
Re: Defranco on Crossfit for Athletes

Quote:
Originally Posted by adam adkins View Post
2) I hate to break this to everyone but training for sport is not that specific. All athletes, no matter the age or level or sport, have very similar needs in a S&C department. There are differences but they just aren't that great.
What exactly do you base this on?

Take several athletes:

1. Volleyball player.
2. Offensive lineman.
3. Swimmer.
4. Triathlete.
5. Ultra-runner (who finishes)
6. SHW powerlifter
7. 99 kg weightlifter.
8. Fencer
9. Downhill skier
10. Hockey player.

Are you seriously telling me you can train them using a general program? Or that their needs are not that different? And your answer must encompass both strength and conditioning.

Hell, even the two strength athletes need to train differently.
  Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
How many athletes or former athletes follow CF? What was your sport, level of competition, and why did you begin CF? Ben Jackson Fitness 23 03-08-2012 02:54 PM
CrossFit for athletes? Tim Dexter Community 5 05-17-2011 06:46 AM
Power athletes are more insulin resistant than endurance athletes Neal Winkler Fitness 46 03-01-2006 04:36 PM
Crossfit for athletes? chris anderson Starting 9 03-21-2005 12:49 PM
British Crossfit Athletes AARON FISHER Community 14 12-12-2004 01:58 PM


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:44 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
CrossFit is a registered trademark of CrossFit Inc.