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Fitness Theory and Practice. CrossFit's rationale & foundations. Who is fit? What is fitness?

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Old 09-18-2010, 06:51 PM   #21
Joseph E. Morris
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Re: Military says You’re Too Flabby For CrossFit

Haha, nicely put KD.
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Old 09-18-2010, 07:09 PM   #22
Jesse Gray
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Re: Military says You’re Too Flabby For CrossFit

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Originally Posted by John Stone View Post
^^^

As of August 31, 2010, 7,819 American soldiers have been wounded in action in Afghanistan, and 1,188 Americans were killed. Approximately 95 of those killed were due to IEDs. So, about 8%.

The news doesn't really give an accurate account for much of anything these days.
Hmm... I just did some research of my own and got pretty different results.

"In 2009, there were 7,228 improvised explosive device (IED) attacks in Afghanistan, a 120% increase over 2008, and a record for the war.[4][5] Of the 512 foreign soldiers killed in 2009, 448 were killed in action. 280 of those were killed by IED's.[6]"

According to that, over 60% of the foreign soldiers killed in Afghanistan last year, the deadliest year to date, were by IED attacks.

I got that from this wiki page WFS which does give a similar number of American KIA (they report 1,192 but not how they died other than combat - including IEDs or non-combat) so I'm certainly not saying you're wrong but that number does seem pretty low. Additionally, I would venture to guess that a very high number of soldiers are wounded in action by IEDs if not killed by them. In any case, it would seem that the majority of soldiers fighting the Taliban are killed by IEDs and not fire fights.
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Old 09-18-2010, 07:41 PM   #23
Chris Mason
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Re: Military says You’re Too Flabby For CrossFit

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Originally Posted by Katherine Derbyshire View Post
As pointed out upthread, correct scaling assumes one-on-one or small group training, not the standardized large group training typically encountered in boot camp scenarios. In those scenarios, it's quite likely that neither the drill instructor nor the recruits have the knowledge and/or mental bandwidth needed.

Katherine
Yes, but that isn't the fault of the program, that is the fault of the trainers, no? In addition, it would not be that difficult for the military to scale CrossFit by having people do what they can individually just as they have to with their current training regimens.
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Old 09-18-2010, 07:51 PM   #24
Jesse Gray
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Re: Military says You’re Too Flabby For CrossFit

I've had to deal with this particular issue a bit myself. I am the S&C coach for the UC Davis rugby team and a couple times a week at practice we do a 10-15 minute conditioning session with the whole team. This is 70 guys all at once, body weight only with varying levels of fitness. If you do it right, it can work very well. If you do it wrong it can fall somewhere between useless and dangerous. I absolutely know that a good crossfit like PT system can be used effectively for groups this size, i have done it but it has to be done right.
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Old 09-18-2010, 09:35 PM   #25
Joseph E. Morris
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Re: Military says You’re Too Flabby For CrossFit

Doing relatively low-skill movements on a large scale such as bodyweight exercises, maybe tire flips and sled drags, buddy carries, etc., can be used to simulate a CrossFit-type methodology and really already are for the most part. But CrossFit avoids such methods because of greater subjectivity in the exercises. Objectivity makes programming for specific goals easier.

So HIIT can be done by the military on a large scale and often is done with things like those mentioned above. Again, though, the quality of execution is usually very poor. But CrossFit proper is not doable on a large scale.
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Old 09-19-2010, 02:07 AM   #26
John Stone
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Re: Military says You’re Too Flabby For CrossFit

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Originally Posted by Carlos Cristan View Post
Who said high intensity training at the BCT level had to be poorly implemented?
For something like CrossFit not to be poorly implemented would require a complete overhaul of the military boot camp system in both its fundamental structure and goals.

On the other hand, implementing CF-type physical training after boot camp would be very easy to do (many soldiers do it on their own already).
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Old 09-19-2010, 02:10 AM   #27
John Stone
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Re: Military says You’re Too Flabby For CrossFit

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Originally Posted by Jesse Gray View Post
Hmm... I just did some research of my own and got pretty different results.

"In 2009, there were 7,228 improvised explosive device (IED) attacks in Afghanistan, a 120% increase over 2008, and a record for the war.[4][5] Of the 512 foreign soldiers killed in 2009, 448 were killed in action. 280 of those were killed by IED's.[6]"
No, you got exactly the same thing I stated, and then you misread it. 7,228 attacks is not opposed to the numbers I gave as wounded or killed.

Not every attack = a killed or wounded person.
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Old 09-19-2010, 08:42 AM   #28
Robert Callahan
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Re: Military says You’re Too Flabby For CrossFit

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Originally Posted by Joseph E. Morris View Post
The reason this article concerns me is that the military often takes a ham-fisted, risk-averse approach to problems raised. There is already a published study showing the efficacy of properly-coached CrossFit; they are starting this new study not to see if it works but to see if it's too dangerous...to allow, I assume. And that frightens me.
I agree with much of what you wrote, except for this.

I assume the "published study" you refer to is the "army study" published in the CF journal? That is neither "published" nor a scientific "study". It is done in a format to look official but has no official bearing at all, and publishing in the CF Journal, which has strong bias towards the subject and zero peer-review, is not exactly going warrant much credibility. On top of that the study itself uses to small of a sample size, and blatantly ignores data points contrary to what they want to see. It makes perfect sense that the military would want to see something slightly more compelling before completely re-hauling the way basic training is run.

For petes sake at least they are preforming a more official large scale study of the subject!! That is huge. It means things are moving in the right direction, and while it will take time you can understand why it is in a large institutions benefit to be wary of drastic change and to take it slowly? I would think this would be something that we would be happy about, not upset???
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Old 09-19-2010, 09:36 AM   #29
Joseph E. Morris
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Re: Military says You’re Too Flabby For CrossFit

OK, fair enough. I thought it was *also* published in the CF journal in addition to somewhere else that was officially military. I admit I did not check very carefully. My bad.

My primary concern though is that from what the study's planners have said (based on that article), this study is motivated by anecdotal evidence of injuries, not anecdotal evidence of success. That the study's author finds it difficult to comprehend why someone would choose such a workout concerns me more. Honestly, I really wonder how much effort will be put into securing proper coaching for whichever participants they have on the CF program. This is why most doctors use running or bicep curls in all their studies; they require almost no coaching. And when someone is this clearly inexperienced in fitness, they generally don't really understand the need for proper form.

Also, at least in the USMC, I've seen what gigglefests fitness and other tactical skills (such as shooting) become once "Big Marine Corps" gets involved, both because of the one-size-fits-all approach and the severe risk aversion. I'm assuming the Army is the same way, though I know it's not as bad with combatives. The Marine Corps has its own combatives program which is started in boot camp. It does little to explain to recruits the reasoning for various techniques or why they work, and the instructors end up screaming at recruits just to hit each other harder. Bad coaching. Other issues of concern: during martial arts training, you are prohibited from punching each other in the face because it's "too dangerous," even though that is, of course, probably the #1 phobia for people learning to fight which must be overcome. I'm worried the same thing will happen with a unit implementation of CrossFit.

But understand -- I am pretty biased against unit PT programs with all but the most junior Marines anyway.


Rick
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Old 09-19-2010, 04:08 PM   #30
Mike Wright
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Re: Military says You’re Too Flabby For CrossFit

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Originally Posted by Katherine Derbyshire View Post
As pointed out upthread, correct scaling assumes one-on-one or small group training, not the standardized large group training typically encountered in boot camp scenarios. In those scenarios, it's quite likely that neither the drill instructor nor the recruits have the knowledge and/or mental bandwidth needed.

Katherine
I find the "bandwidth" comment insulting. Then again, I am MIL, so it very well could be my lack of bandwidth preventing my understanding.
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